Thanks for tuning in.

The petition drive to get big corporate dollars out of politics is underway.

And Sean McBrearty is part of that effort.

So sit in with us as we get the inside out Off Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com.

And now, this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Welcome to Studio and welcome to Off the Record.

Kind of a crazy news week.

Not a big lead out of it, but one of the leads was the petition drive a 750,000 names on voter ID.

Game over?I mean there were a lot of boxes there while they were announcing their numbers.

I mean, 750,000.

That's that's a big margin.

They only need, you know, close to 450,000.

So it's a big margin that they have some wiggle room there.

But I, you know I hesitate to call any petition drive done until we actually se the accuracy of the signatures.

Given the history of this issue right?

Yes given the history of this issue, I, I had some, some I think some qualified doubts on that.

But we'll see what happens with it.

Yeah.

We can let the experts weigh in on on the veracity of the signatures.

But yeah, it is it is a pretty commanding number.

And comes out and, you know, shows that they're serious about getting this on the ballot, which I think, you know, it's always a question when these ballot initiatives come up you know, how serious are they?

Do they have what it take to get it over the finish line.

They did pay for names.

So the incentive to cheat is there.

Well, I you know, it's like, oh well we'll see it hopefully, hopefully there's no issues involved, that we've seen in past campaigns.

But yeah.

It's, it's, definitely very interesting to see that, you know, it's it's, looking pretty serious at this point.

You know, when you have amateurs raising, petitions, there's always an issue.

Are they going to make mistakes because they're untrained?

It's the first time they're doing it.

It seems like the right way to do that.

But in Michigan, I think you're in more peril if you pay people to collect petitions.

We saw Adam Oliver get bounced from the congressional, ticket, last time, because it turns out my wife signed his petition twice, which is twice more than she signed my petitions to run for city council.

So pay petition.

I'm not going to go there.

Okay?

We're going to leave that alone.

Yeah.

That's so.

Well, I'm here today, but, But yeah, the petitions have stumbled.

So many candidates, particularly the statewide ones that I think, as Beth says, if you have a big cushion, you got a good chance.

Well, but the issue itself.

Okay.

Don't we have a law that says that you got to show who you are?

We have a la that says you have to be a U.S.

citizen.

Correct.

And in most times, the way you prove that is by signing an affidavit attesting to it.

And by all accounts, it is very rare that that non-citizens vote in, in elections in Michigan but.

Although we had 1 that they found allegedly.

Yes.

And that is in part what has stoked this.

Right.

We had a, Chinese national who was a student at U of M, who went back to the clerk' office and said, I just voted in the 2024 election and he was charged and absconded to who knows where instead of, facing charges here.

And then a later review showed 15 others had also voted.

So it it does happen.

Whether it's enough to to swa an election is another question.

And whether they're catching all of them is another valid question.

Well, Mr.

Trump indirectly is driving this whole issue here, is he not?

Except for the 2024 election, which he was pretty happy with the results.

But he told us in 2016, if I win, everything's cool.

If I lose, I' going to challenge the results.

And what we've seen basically is politicians have been turned into poor losers and not to go back to my personal trauma, but when I lost a friend who really supported me, said there must have bee something wrong with the votes, I said, yeah, we got 2000 to few.

It wasn't rigged.

Sometimes you lose.

And I also think to your point about Trump's, pushing for this at the federal level, we're seeing it debate over at the SAVE Act, which has a lot of similar, a lot of similar content about, you know, adding in additional guardrails that the SAVE Act would go a little further in some cases requiring birth certificates, if not a passport for for some voters.

So, we'll see where that goes in Congress.

But this issue has been a perennial issue, especially since 2020.

It's it's been, red meat for a lot of conservatives.

And it's not surprising to see it coming up again.

And voters, not politicians says they're going to fight this on the grounds that this is be exclusive, exclude some people from voting.

It just will take them out of the system.

I think they've got an uphil battle on this one.

I really do.

I mean, I think what what they're saying in terms of fighting this is that there are individuals who will be exclude who who should be able to vote, but will be excluded because they can't find these documents that they need in order to prove their residency or their citizenship.

So I, I think, you know, the group is saying that they're going to make accommodations for people that the Secretary of state at times will be able to make judgment calls when, when those situations arise.

But I, I think this is the same group that has questioned many of the judgment calls of the Secretary of State in the past.

So there's a question of of what kind of leeway they will have there.

I think if it makes it to the ballot, it's a messaging issue on both sides.

You know, whoever can come up with the clearest message, the thing that resonates the most, you'll probably see, you know, it's like we want secure elections on one sid and then the other side will be there's a potential for voter disenfranchisement.

And to whether which message resonates remains to be seen but.

If this gets on the ballot, does this become the Republican conservative agenda issue that the abortion issue was for the Democrats?

It would drive people to the polls without Donald Trump on the top of the ticket.

In other words, a hidden agenda here?

Yes?

No?

Well I think.

You're not buying it.

Well, I think the issue here is you know, I lived in New Hampshir quite a while, and people think that most poor people in America are black and live in cities.

Let me tell you, most of the live in northern New Hampshire.

Okay.

So if this happens, most of the people who I think will be disenfranchised will be poor white people from the South.

If you've ever tried to find your birth certificate or if you have kids and you try and find their birth certificate or get a passport for them, good luck.

It's almost impossible.

But I think there are some issues that could trump this, no pun intended, like electricity rates.

There are issues that hit the pocketbook that people want to talk about.

And why are we trying to solve problems that aren't problems when we have $1 trillion deficit, when we're in a war that might not be a war?

I think the politician who can say, I'm going to deal with things that really affect you, not things that people want to get yo angry is going to have a chance.

All right.

Let's take a look at a piece we did last week as a result of our interview with the governor.

People are sort of fascinated by this Trump Whitme relationship.

Let's take a look.

Here's a pop quiz.

How many times in the las 14 months have Governor Whitmer and President Trump talked on the phone nine times, 28, 12 or 5?

The answer is, Oh I don't know.

You know.

Guess at it.

Hell call once in awhile.

I probably talk to them twice a month.

That would make it 28 times.

This unusual story begins in December of 2024.

Lots of Democratic governors at the time were lambasting the president elect, Donald Trump.

Governor Gretchen Whitmer was on the sidelines playing a different game cooperation.

My job is to work with them, and I'm going to do everything I can to find common ground.

And then there she was in the Oval Office with House Speaker Matt Hall and her newfound political associate, President Trump.

This despite having to disagreement.

The governor says, I'm 95 out of 100 issues.

Oh, we don't agree on tariffs.

We don't agree on the ACA cuts.

We don't agree o how we treat people or deploy, you know, troops within our states.

The governor says their relationship over time has stayed pretty much the same, and the two are not afraid to disagree.

Neither of us pulls punches.

But at the same token, if there's five things out of 100 I can find common ground with and and get some things done for Michigan, then I'm going to take every one of those opportunities.

The political odd couple thing apparently, is working for both of them and the governor pledges.

I'm keeping the lines of communication open.

That from a governor who Mr.

Trump onc called that woman from Michigan not exactly a term of endearment, but apparently they've gotten beyond that.

So what do you make of that?

Well, I was glad to see in the Oval Office they're, keeping the social distancing.

It seemed like she was Covid.

Covid.

Yeah, she's.

I gues she's still sticking with that.

I mean, it's a big evolution from when she's trying to hide behind a binde when shes in the White House.

Twice a month on the horn.

He's calling her and she's calling him.

Well, there's a lot going on in Michigan.

We have a lot of federal money.

We have this this bridge they might want to talk about a little bit more.

I think when you're talking to the other side, that's a good thing.

I think it's really fascinating.

And I think I even said on this progra once that if you had predicted Trump and Whitmer talking 28 times a year on the phone in 2024, you would have gotten laughed out of here.

And I think that remains the case.

It's a very fascinating transition from Trump's first term to his second term.

On how he's been willing to open the lines of communication with Democrats.

You're seeing it with eyes o on Madame in New York as well.

He's he's keeping tha line of communication open, too.

and, and I think there are quite a few issues that they need to talk about.

I think tariff really disproportionately impact Michigan.

As, as you mentioned, the Gordie Howe Bridge, there's there's a lot of thing that need to be addressed here.

But let's not forget Dana Nessel's comment on this without mentioning the governor's name.

People will, quote, live to regret this.

Well, I mean, I think that remains to be seen, but I do.

I this week, actually, I started to question it a little bit because I feel like you had the house earlier this week.

fast track a bill to put $152 million toward Selfridge Air National Guard Base.

This is after the Trump administration promised the fighter jet mission.

And all of a sudden the state, according to Matt Hall, has to kick in a huge amount of money to prepare Selfridge for that, to fas track it in order to get it in before his term.

And there wa not much explanation about what broke dow in terms of communication there, or why the feds can't cover the preparations for that fighter jet mission.

And, that's one of the successes that that they have, you know, boasted about in terms of this relationship with Trump.

So I do have questions after that.

None of them have been answered very well.

Well, didn't the governor's office say we were working on this?

Okay.

You give us some time, we're going to get this thing and it'll be settled.

So it doesn't mean tha the relationship has gone sour.

Maybe Matt Hall just got he's afraid that the money will be taken away after Trump leaves office.

A new, president comes in and says, you know, we're not going to do Selfridge base.

So let's get this ahead of the of the, you know, the money, get it, get the runways done.

Well, Trump still has three years.

And you know, you see this sometimes where the feds promised jobs.

But when you break down how much we have to spend to get the jobs, it doesn't make any sense.

$152 million is chump change.

Well not for the state of Michigan.

Yeah its chump change while we're facing $1 billion shortfall for the next year.

Money.

Come on, guys, I do want to bring up because you brought up, Attorney General Nessel.

there are dozens of lawsuits that Michigan is involved with right now against the Trump administration.

So it is kind of a good cop, bad cop situation here where if even if the governor is not necessarily willing to criticize Trump on every single issue, attorney General Nessel will.

what else did Mr.

Hall say in the news conference that got your attention?

Anythin other than the Selfridge thing?

I'm trying to recall the news conference.

no.

I mean, I think his big announcement there was, was Selfridge.

Right?

The fact that they were going to be kicking in $152 million towar it to, redo the runways there.

And you know, I think he he felt it was necessar to pull the trigger right there.

And then within hours, despite Hull's calls for transparency over the past year, that didn't really bear fruit that day.

It was, I think House Democrats found out about it about 15 minutes befor they were asked to vote on it.

So it was, it wa an interesting day in Lansing.

Well, it underscored the fact that if you're the speaker of the House and you want something done, you can get it done.

Well or you can start to get it done.

I still think, one of the things people hate in politics and in life is big surprises, especially with big price tags on them.

And I think if you want to get something done, particularly when you don't control every branch of government, you might want to try and lay the groundwork befor you just write a check for $152 million that ultimately requires somebody else's signature on them.

It was surprising that he had not touch base with the governor on this one.

I think, given the relationship that they have, maybe a heads up might have been appropriate.

But who am I to say?

Let's call in and talk about money out of politics.

What's that all about?

Welcome back to Off to Record.

Good to see you again.

Tell the people at home who don't know about money out of politics.

What's going on in this petition drive and why?

Yeah, absolutely.

you know, right now, price are rising across the country.

here in Michigan in February, DTE Energy asked for and got or got another $250 million rate increase.

Five days later, they turn around and ask for yet another rate increase.

They want working families in Michigan to pay even more while they're taking home record breaking profits.

and Michiganders for Money Out of Politics is our chance to say no.

We're hearing outrage from a lot of people across the state of Michigan who are joining up a our website, mopupmichigan.org signing petitions, circulating petitions, and working to take bac our power from the corporations who have bought our government And you do that by doing what?

Passing this ballot initiative.

Well, yes.

But you're saying to the utilities they can't contribute anymore?

This is a free country, isn't it?

You know what?

For the regular people who do the majority of the working and paying an living and dying in our state, we want them to be contributing and putting politics for corporations who make their money from their direct ties to our government, government contractors, and regulated utilities.

No, they shouldn't be able to buy the system.

The system's made for regular people, not corporations.

Well, I think on thing that people don't realize is that there are multiple utility rates in that, large, companies and industrie pay lower rates than consumers, and that may be for competitive reasons, but I can't rule out that it's because you and me don't have lobbyists, and these big industries do.

And so I think if you can make that message to people, you got a chance.

Exactly.

And, you know, we're seeing across the board right now, you know, November, we got our last poll results.

We're still pulling at 81% across the board with support from every political party and every demographic.

We're proud to have pulled on some business support from the Great Lakes Business Network and, some labor support from SEIU within the last month.

So we're seeing people across the political spectrum getting involved in this because Michigan residents aren't stupid.

You know DTE and Blue Cross Blue Shield and these other big corporation that are buying our government can claim that wha they're doing is fine and good.

But it's obviously not.

And people across the stat really feel that in a visceral way.

And that's why, you know, we're seeing tons of people getting involved.

95% of our signatures right now are coming from volunteers.

Just like folks watching at home who are out there in their communities talking to their friends and neighbors and getting signatures.

Besides just looking at their utility bills.

Are there any other issues this year that you think, could pique people's interest in this?

I mean, I know a lot of communities are considering data centers or I'm just curious if there's any, anything on the horizon that you see, impacting people's lives on utilities.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think the data center issue is inextricably tied to the money and politics issue.

And here's one example of how, in 2023, DTE and Consumers Energy lobbied in the energy package to get off ramps, put in the energy package.

So that is there's a big enough increase in need for light for energy on the grid.

They can build new gas plant despite the clean energy rules.

After that, DTE and Consumer Energy lobbied to get huge tax breaks put in for data centers, setting up shop in Michigan.

That creates the draw on the grid that they need to go out, build new gas plants, capitalize the assets, and make even more profit on the backs of working families here in Michigan.

Why do you think now is the time?

Like I mean, this this influence of consumers?

BlueCros has been going on for years now.

Do you think it's just reached a point that so egregious that that peopl are starting to notice, or why why did you guys see this as the opportune moment to bring this issue forward?

You know, we brought this issue forward 2 or 3 years ago in the legislature, and it became clear that the legislature was not going to regulate themselves, and that the people, need to play a role here in taking back our power.

I think we should have done this 20 years ago.

but, you know, we have this opportunity to do it now, and we're seeing broad support across the state.

So I'm really excited that we have the opportunity here.

And, Tim, if $15 million like you, you're saying earlier for Selfridge is chump change, please make a contribution.

Im not going to go there.

How many names do you have?

You know, right now we are, we have tons of petitions in the field.

I can tell you for the last month, we got an additional 40,000.

And, and we are sittin at a place where we're confident we're going to be able to turn in signatures in, mid to late April.

Okay.

The number that was given to me a couple of weeks ago you have 120,000 names on hand.

Is that accurate?

we're a little bit beyond that now.

you know, validation takes some time to catch up.

Are you going to get the 750,000?

We don't need 750,000.

And we don't have a billionaire from Illinois bankrolling us alone.

It is kind of funny tha that proposition, you know, is essentially bankrolled by one billionaire from Illinois who's trying to get Michigan voters to throw away their political power.

But you've gotten to the point where you're starting to pay for names, which means you might be in trouble?

No, you know, we are now in a position where we can, pay for names with some of our partner organizations, groups like Michigan United and Clean Water Action, who have been in this from the beginning, who are sending our circulators out.

And we're lucky to be able to pay some of the folks who've been volunteering for us before.

So some of the lawmakers who in the past have opposed DTE or Consumers have seen, some pretty significant campaigns against the by those groups through through dark mint money groups that came out against them.

Are you guys anticipating similar pushback?

Oh, yeah, I think they're going to outspend us 10 to 1 once we make the ballot.

I think we're still going to win.

We're polling at 81%.

And again, the people in Michigan aren't going to be fooled by energy executives making millions of dollars who want to keep buying our political system.

But you have to make the ballot first?

Yep.

Are are you suggesting that the utilities are buying votes in Lansing?

Yes.

What's your proof?

My proof is so in 2022, out of 148 state House lawmakers, state lawmakers, last time the whole legislature was up, they donated 138 of them gets their way in Lansing every day.

And people on the outside don't see it.

But people on the inside know, that DTE and Consumers Energy and other big corporations are buying influence to the point where when we go and work on things that are actually going to help people like polluter pay laws and things like that, we hear from lawmakers on the inside oh, DTE won't let that happen.

Well, if you're quote buying influence, how come nobody's been charged with a crime?

That would be a good question for lawyers and judges.

You know, I think that, often we have some experts here in political corruption stories.

and we've all seen the influence that these companies are having, and it's not an influence that helps the people of Michigan.

It's something that's made our politics more toxic and corrosive over time.

And it's something that we can fix now.

One of the big problems that we have in trying to establish where the money goes is the fact that there's a lack of transparency, the dark money accounts, the fact that you can pour money into a 501-C4 and we can when you get the legislature or anybody in state government to agree that we should at least know whether you have a 501-C4 .

And I wonder with your initiative, if you really want to build the outrage and really show people how deep this runs, if it really shouldn't b about trying to bring complete transparency to money and politics in Michigan, as opposed to just saying, well, they gave a lot of money here, and these guys don't do that.

If people knew where all the dollars went, I thin they'd fall out of their chairs.

Oh, absolutely.

And I think, you know, this isn't going to be the end of the story on money in politics.

This one initiativ isn't going to solve everything.

And for example.

But are you kind of going at it backwards?

Don't we need to see how bad the problem is before we before we take the cure?

I mean, don't we don't we have to run into a lightning, a light pole before we need to stop drinking and driving?

I hope not.

We should probably stop drinking and driving before we're hitting light poles.

By the way, don't drink and drive.

Just so we're clear.

You know, but I think, speaking of other ways that, you know, we're going to see some impacts here.

There's a Supreme Court case right now, NRSC vs.

FEC, that's likely to get ruled on in June or July this year.

And the court seems poised to kick out contribution limits on coordinated PACs.

It's going to be a Citizens United 2.0 that again, gives corporation more power than regular people over who's over over the votes that are happening in Lansing and in Washington.

And at the state level, our ballot initiative can really help address that.

By making sur that some of the worst offenders here are no longer abl to are no longer able to spend this vast quantity of money in our elections.

Put on your water hat for a second.

Your concern about these data centers sucking all the water out of the environment.

We've got 90 of them around the state now.

Any evidence that that's going on?

Well, there's a difference between some of the older data centers that are already here that can be of all different sizes, and some of these mega dat centers that are being proposed, like in Selene Township and elsewhere.

And, you know, data centers across the world when we see these mega data centers, like, we've seen a lot of them in Virginia and some other places, they're using, up to 2 o 3 times as much water as Nestlé, was hoping to withdraw back in 201 when we saw that massive outrage across the state against Nestlé Commodity Commodifying, the Great Lakes.

And the thing about data centers, the thing that keeps that I keep coming back to is, you know, this doesn't have to be an environmental problem.

The fact that it is, poised to be an environmental and affordability problem are choices that we're making.

They're there's no reason why these can't be powered with renewables on site.

There's no reason that thes can't be cooled using technology that doesn't use massive amounts of water or pollute our water but somehow, Michigan lawmakers, in giving, these data centers massive ta breaks, have bought the argument that folks like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk need our tax dollars and to then build something that' going to hurt our communities.

It doesn't have to be that way.

We can make choices to regulate data centers responsibly.

and turn this into something that's no longer an issue.

Make this a benefit for our communities instead of a tax on regular folks.

One thing that's been interesting to me about a lot of the issues that you're bringing up today is that they don't always necessarily fall along partisan lines, like there's kind of a mix of Republicans and Democrats who fall on either side of these issues.

And I'm curious as as your organizatio has been collecting signatures and talking to folks on the ground about this and, you know, have you noticed any trends in terms of, you know, political leanings versus where they end up on these issues?

You know, even if our politics is very toxic right now, it's given me some faith in regular people across the state coming together.

Because you're right.

It's it's we're seeing people from a variety of political backgrounds, who are really just tired of this system prioritizing major corporations over regular people.

The the environmental lobby has failed miserably at convincing the governors, whomever in the legislature, that we ought to be chargin more water for the Nestlé people who are no longer involved, because you you guys have failed on that front, have you not?

No at the township level, they were able to stop them.

Well, what are they paying?

Well, we have 30 seconds or so left here, and that is a longer conversation about, public trust and the Great Lakes.

I don't think anybody should be paying for Great Lakes water to begin with, because it's not a commodity.

It's something that is owned collectively by all of us.

But whatever they're paying right now, they should be paying more.

Yes?

No, they shouldn't be abl to withdraw from the Great Lakes and commodify it because it's our resource.

Thanks for showing up.

We appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks to our panel more of off the record righ here next week.

See you there.

Production of Off th Record is made possible in part by Bellwether public relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com.

For more Off the Record, visit wkar.org.

Michigan Public Television stations have contributed to the production costs of Off the Record.