Okay, I'm in one of the special places here in Elkhart County, and I have with me my friend and you are getting ready for retirement.

I am after a long haul through the decades.

That's incredible.

Okay, Brian.

So you have been here as long as I am old.

Yeah.

That's true.

Gee, that really puts it in perspective.

I'm young.

So you're young at heart too, right?

Yeah.

You've been here a while, and this museum has really just grown so much over that time.

Let's take it back to that time when you first started here, you know, what was it like to be a part of that?

Well, it was sort of unreal because I was right out of college and, arrived in Elkhart, which was totally a different culture than what I grew up in, in southern Indiana.

Okay.

And but I was I had this aspiration of, of moving eventually to Chicago, and I felt like I'd been there a couple times and it was seemed like I could survive there.

Yeah.

But, entering the third Elkhart Juried Regional as an artist young artist aged 23, I won Best of show.

And, it would be about five weeks later that the late Jane Burns, one of my mentors, and the late doctor Richard Burns, called me in for an interview to replace two curators who were leaving to take other positions in other locations.

How old is the museum here?

The museum has, recently celebrated its 46th anniversary, so it's fairly new back then.

Yes, I was here, but really it was about two and a half years into its life.

Okay.

So okay, I wasn't at the very beginning.

I really kind of feels like it at this point.

Right?

Yes.

And you have seen so many art come through these walls, right?

Yes.

So let's talk about your art in particular.

You are more of a mixed media artist yourself.

Yes.

And I, pursued that career for, oh, you know, at least, 15, 16 years simultaneously and outside of the realm of learning, the profession of curatorship here and and what that meant in every professional sense of the word.

And, and so, you know, during that time, I entered a lot of competitions, okay.

So that, you know, that two wouldn't really be seen as one influencing the other, although, you know, making art certainly influences your ideas as a curator, because I think you have a better, perhaps, understanding of what the creative impulse is and the materials that are used and appreciation for it, and a little bit a different type of appreciation.

You know, I was an art history minor, so I was well read in, in modernism.

However, American art was in its still the scholarly scholarship of American art was still in its infancy.

So what's wonderful about this museum is that the scholarship has risen exponentially.

When I arrived, there were two books on American art history on the shelf.

Oh, wow.

And today there would be thousands of books.

Absolutely.

And so, you know, learning my, my career, 15 years into it, I decided, well, you know, I, I'm going to set the making art aside.

I'm going to get a masters and I'm going to concentrate on my curators.

So now that you're going to be retiring, what does that mean for you?

Well, you got to go back to that.

That'll be one of the things that I do that for you.

But I'm not pursuing it so much as a career move, you know?

Okay.

More for, you know, I mean, today there are more artists in the world than ever before.

You know, maybe 80,000 to 90,000 people graduate with fine art degrees every year.

And, there's really I always used to say there's less than 1%, certainly teaching jobs available at the college level if you have that MFA.

But, maybe 10% find their way into some art related, profession or job.

And, and that's what my mentor, Joan, the late Jonas Howard, who was professor at IU Southeast in New Albany, told me.

He said, you know, there's a lot of jobs in the art world that, are related in.

He said maybe you could find an entry level position in a small museum as a preparatory, and it worked out for you.

It just kind of worked out that way, you know?

So what advice would you have to someone who might be considering going into a career in the arts, more specifically into kind of the curator role?

Yes.

Well, you know, there are more opportunities to be an intern in a position in a museum, perhaps.

Depends on where you live.

Okay.

But, I mean, when you're thinking, art, I know we have incredible art here, especially in Elkhart County.

When you're thinking a career, should we be exploring?

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

I mean, we should have more.

If you're a student, whether you're in the high school level.

You know, when I was in the seventh grade, I decided I was going to be an architect and go to Ball State, wherever that was.

And, but you know, that changed.

But wherever you are, you could investigate your local art galleries, whether they're commercial or not for profit, local museums, if visual art, if it's dance or any of the other arts theater, then, you know, get involved wherever you can.

And so internships and some colleges will, you know, you can go, abroad to study, which is phenomenal.

So and I'm sure you have so much experience, meaning so many artists over the years.

What have been some of your standout pieces that you might have run into or artists?

Oh gosh, I, I did do a kind of a list because I got curious about how many famous world famous artists I have met in my career.

Okay.

And there's at least an artist and art critics.

You know, I met the late Robert Hughes, who was time magazine art critic in Milwaukee at the same time I met the late, Phillip Pearlstein.

And both were very gracious to me.

And I was only about 24 years.

So you are brand new.

And, over the years, I met Louise Nevelson.

I met, gosh, there's been so many that it's hard to recant.

I'd have to look at my notes now.

I see the impression on you.

Oh, yeah?

And how does that play into your role here?

Well, you know, some of the artists I met were artists that the museum had begun to collect and over the years when I started, there were 224 works in the permanent collection.

Okay.

Today there's close to 6800 works.

And so congratulations for that.

Thanks, thanks.

Well, it's the deep well that we go to to generate thematic shows.

And, and you know when, when I would receive something from a collector or from a living artist, I would just relish the fact that, you know, it was a gift.

So we didn't buy art.

We it had to be donated.

And now we have three curators working on the collection.

And, one of them, you know, has informed me that there is indeed over 500 sources who have donated art over the last years.

I mean, that's just incredible here, especially for me.

And I met almost every one of them at some point.

At some point.

So when is your last day here?

Well, my last day will be December 30th or 31st, depending, and you'll still be a part of the museum family in some way or form.

Well, I'm hope so.

They won't just shut the door.

I mean, although, you know, they wanted me to stay longer, but I think sometimes it's important to step aside and let the next generation step up.

And, my co-director or our executive director now, Jeff Hrabowski, done an outstanding job of advancing the mission of the museum.

So I feel like my legacy is pretty secure from 50 to 100.

I love that, I love that for you, too.

And I know we have some beautiful work behind us.

Yes.

And you grew up in southern Indiana?

I did, and this is kind of the northern Indiana, landscape.

Well, a little bit of.

Oh, all.

So behind we have, you know, Frank deadly, whose paintings and endorsed the, Robert Lieber, the first superintendent of the state parks to become the legislator to set aside the Indiana Dunes.

We have that steel painting here.

And, of course, he moved to Brown County in 1907.

And a few years afterward, by 1917, Adolph Schultz had moved there and established what is now famous as the Brown County Art colony.

And there's still a lot of artists in Warren County.

You know, so, William Forsyth was the dean of the Irvington Painters.

Now, Irvington has been swallowed up by Indianapolis, you know, so, I mean, there is so much that, you know, so I hope you're passing on this information and and I've taken some time because really, as a curator, you know, all the ins and outs of these artists.

Well, I, I do know a story about every work of art and everyone that gave it.

And if I have met that kept notes and, and my, young colleague Randall Roberts, who has assumed that role as curator has been here ten years, and he's a very good quick study, and he's absorbed a lot of those stories and can find his way so well.

Your legend lives on.

I hope I met him when he was 16 years old.

Oh my gosh, congratulations.

Thank you for 44.

Tremendous.

Thank you so much.

It's so nice to have you here today.

Absolutely.

Thank you.