>>> HELLO EVERYBODY AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

HUNGER AND DANGER IN GAZA AS MORE ARE KILLED BY ISRAEL WHILE SEEKING AIDE AND STARVATION WORSENS.

THE UN'S TOP HUMANITARIAN OFFICIAL TOM FLETCHER JOINS ME AND OPPOSITION TO THIS WAR GROWS INSIDE ISRAEL.

WHAT COULD IT MEAN FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF PEACE?

I WILL ASK A SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER.

>>> THEN WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE TIKTOK BAN AND IS IT STILL A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK?

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SILVIA A AND SIMON B TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IN GAZA DOZENS MORE PALESTINIANS JOIN THE LIST OF THOSE KILLED BY ISRAEL AS THEY TRIED TO FIND FOOD AFTER ISRAELI FORCES OPENED FIRE NEAR AN AIDE SITE.

THIS AS THE ENVVOY MET WITH PRIM MINE SISTER NETANYAHU.

CANADA HAS JOINED A GROWING LIST RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE AND IN ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT ARAB MUSLIM STATES HAVE FOR THE FIRST TIME ISSUED A CALL FOR HAMAS TO DISARM AND GIVE UP POWER IN GAZA AS PART OF EFFORTS TO END THIS BRUTAL WAR.

AMID THE MOVES THOUGH PEOPLE ARE ST ARVING TO DEATH IN GAZA.

THEY NEED AIDE SAYS THE WFP.

TOM FLETCHER IS THE UN'S TOP HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

COULD I JUST START WITH A NEWS FLASH THAT ISRAEL HAS DROPPED 43 AIDE PACKAGES INTO GAZA OVER THE PAST FEW HOURS.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO ISRAELI MILITARY.

AIR DROPPED IT.

I MEAN IS THAT CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THROUGH AT ALL IS WELCOME.

ULTIMATELY YOU CAN GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF AIDE ONTO ONE TRUCK AS YOU CAN GET ONTO ONE PLANE AND WHAT WE NEED TO SEE IS VAST AMOUNTS.

THESE TRUCKS GETTING THROUGH IN THEIR HUNDREDS AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WE ARE GETTING IN AT THE MOMENT.

SO, I'M NOT GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT AIR DROPS BUT IT'S NOT THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO SAVE THE NUMBER OF LIVES WE NEED TO SAVE.

WE NEED TO GET ON WITH IT.

>> SO TALK TO ME ABOUT THE AIDE THAT IS GETTING THROUGH.

THERE IS AIR DROPS AS WE SAID WHICH EVERYBODY SAYS IS JUST A TRICKLE AND CAN BE DANGEROUS AS WELL AND CAN LEAD TO ONLY THE FITTEST BEING ABLE TO SURVIVE THE MELEE AROUND IT.

WHAT ABOUT IS THERE ANY LET UP IN THE TRUCKS OR THE AIDE THAT'S BEEN STALLED AND STUCK AT THE BORDER?

>> REMINDER THAT WHEN I WAS IN GAZA AND SPOKE TO YOU FROM THERE A FEW MONTHS AGO DURING THE CEASE FIRE WE WERE GETTING IN 600 OR 700 TRUCKS A DAY.

NEED TO DELIVER AT NOW.

INSTEAD, YOU KNOW, SINCE SUNDAY, SINCE THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE CHANGE FROM THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES WE ARE GETTING IN FEWER THAN 100 TRUCKS A DAY AND ARE STILL FACING MASSIVE HURDLES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

WE HAVE TO TURN UP AT THE BORDERS, GET THE PERMISSIONS TO GET THROUGH.

WE HAVE TO UNLOAD THE TRUCKS.

WE HAVE TO BRING DIFFERENT TRUCKS WITH DIFFERENT DRIVERS.

WE THEN NEED TO GO THROUGH A SEPARATE SET OF PERMISSIONS TO MOVE AND THEN WE FACE THESE TERRIBLE SECURITY CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.

DESPERATE, STARVING PEOPLE AND A CONFLICT AROUND US.

THESE ARE REALLY IMPOSSIBLE CONDITIONS TO GET AIDE THROUGH.

WE WILL DO OUR BEST.

WE WILL GET EVERY TRUCK WE CAN GET THROUGH BUT WE NEED TO PRESSURE TO BE SUSTAINED TO DEMAND THAT WE HAVE THE CONDITIONS TO DELIVER.

TODAY JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

MY SENIOR OFFICIAL ON THE GROUND.

COORDINATING THESE DELIVERIES, THE GUY WHO KNOWS THE PALESTINIAN LEADERS, THE ISRAELI LEADERS IS THE LAST DAY BEFORE HIS VISA IS TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM BY THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.

WE ARE FACING THESE HUGE HURDLES BUT WE WILL KEEP TRYING.

WE WILL KEEP GOING BUT THE SITUATION IS DESPERATE.

IT'S GOT TO BE AT A MUCH GREATER SCALE AND WITH MUCH MORE URGENCY.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THIS KIND OF TUG OF WAR BETWEEN YOU THE UN AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE VISA.

I WANT TO GET TO THAT.

YOU TALKED ABOUT PRESSURE THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID HIS SPECIAL ENVOY --IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN QUITE A FEW MONTHS THAT HE HAS GONE, MET WITH NETANYAHU AND APPARENTLY IS MEANT TO BE GOING TO SEE WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHEN ARE THESE DEADLY SO-CALLED GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION AIDE HUBS WHERE ISRAEL SAID THEY FIRE IN THE AIR, WARNING SHOTS BUT WHERE HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS REPORT THAT THEY ARE GOING INTO THE STOMACHS OF PEOPLE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE DYING.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HE CAN DO.

WHAT LEVERAGE DO THEY HAVE RIGHT NOW?

>> IT'S A VERY WELCOME VISIT.

IT'S WHAT IS CLEAR FROM THE STATEMENTS WE HAVE SEEN FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP INCLUDING IN THE UK OVER THE WEEKEND IS THAT HE WANTS THIS TO END.

HE WANTS THE STARVATION TO END.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO SEE THESE PICTURES OF TYING BABIES WE ARE ALL WITNESSING RIGHT NOW.

SO IT'S EXCELLENT THAT HE SENT HIS CHIEF ENVOY OVER TO SEE IF WE CAN CHANGE THAT SITUATION.

I THINK EVERYBODY AT VARIOUS TIMES HAS HOPED THAT PRIVATE PRESSURE CAN SHIFT THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO OPEN UP GREATER ACCESS.

OF COURSE MANY EUROPEANS ARE DEMANDING THAT AS WELL.

MANY IN ISRAEL INCLUDING WITH IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY WANT US TO GET THIS AIRED THROUGH.

SO I DESPERATELY HOPE THAT HE CAN MAKE THAT PROGRESS.

WE HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH HIM OF COURSE AND WE ARE OFFERING HIM BRIEFINGS ON THE GROUND ON THE REALITIES OF THE SITUATION.

IF ANYONE CAN SHIFT THIS GOVERNMENT IT IS OF COURSE THE AMERICANS.

SO THIS SHIFT, SHIFT IN THEIR APPROACH IS GOOD NEWS.

>> YOU MENTIONED PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HE DID ACTUALLY SAY HERE IN THE UK THERE IS STARVATION THERE.

BABIES ARE DYING.

THEY ARE HUNGRY AND WE HAVE GOT TO STOP IT.

STILL, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU CHALLENGES THOSE TERMS.

THERE IS NO STARVATION AND ANY HUNGER IS CAUSED BY HAMAS, ANY DISRUPTION IS CAUSED BY HAMAS.

I WANT TO JUST REPORT WHAT CINDY McCAIN WHO IS THE HEAD OF WFP BASICALLY SAID WAITING FOR OFFICIAL CONFIRMATION OF FANINE OR ANY TERMS TO PROVIDE LIFE SAVING FOOD AIDE THEY DESPERATELY NEED IS HORRIBLE.

PEOPLE ARE DYING OF MALNUTRITION AND THE HIGHER WE WAIT THE HIGHER THE DEATH TOLL WILL RISE.

SO IT'S SO ACT NOW.

ARE YOU SEEING A SHIFT IN THE GLOBAL PRESSURE?

IT IS INCREDIBLE WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE LAST WEEK.

CERTAINLY SINCE TRUMP SAID THERE WAS --AND MOST PARTICULARLY SINCE WE HAVE BEEN SEEING THESE APPROXIMATE I CAN CHURCHES PICTURES.

I HAVE BEEN TO MANY COUNTRY COUNTRY SIMMONS ZONES.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS REACHING A TIPPING POINT FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY?

>> IT CERTAINLY IS PAST THE POINT IN TERMS OF THE HUNGER STARVATION LEVELS.

I AGREE WITH CINDY McCAIN WHO IS AN OUTSTANDING HUMANITARIAN.

I HAVE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH HER DISCUSSING HOW WE CAN RAMP UP THIS EFFORT TO GET OUR TRUCKS MOVING AND SHE IS WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK TO SHIFT THOSE CONVOYS IN AND REACH THE CIVILIANS WHO SO BADLY NEED IT.

I THINK WE HAVE SEEN A SHIFT IN THE TONE OF INTERNATIONAL COMMENTS IN THE LAST FEW DAYS.

YOU HAVE SEEN IT VERY CLEARLY FROM EUROPEAN LEADERS, YOU HAVE SEEN IT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP AND I THINK IN THIS CASE YOU KNOW WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAYING IS NO STARVATION AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING THERE IS STARVATION I AGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT PEOPLE ARE DYING.

PEOPLE ARE DYING OF HUNGER THIS CAN BE AVOIDED.

THIS IS A MAN MADE FAMINE.

HE IS RIGHT TO PUT THAT PRESSURE ON THE HARD-LINERS WITH IN THE ISRAELI CABINET TO ALLOW US THAT ACCESS.

ULTIMATELY THE POLITIC IS A SIDE SHOW.

IT'S ABOUT GETTING THE TRUCKS MOVING, FOOD, WATER, FUEL, SHELTER, ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.

MEDICAL EQUIPMENT, ALL OF THAT IS BADLY NEEDED ALONGSIDE THE UN TRUCKS MY TEAM ON THE GROUND IS SAYING WE HAVE TO GET PRIVATE SECTOR MOVING AS WELL TO GET MORE FOOD IN THAN EVEN WE CAN PROVIDE.

>> LET'S JUST TRY TO DO A SORT OF FORENSIC LOOK FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IS HAPPENING --THE CHARGES AND THE COUNTER CHARGES WITH ALL THIS AIDE THAT IS STACKED UP AT THE BORDER.

THERE HAVE BEEN IMAGES OF COURSE OF SOME OF THESE PALLETS AND TRUCKS BEING, YOU KNOW STORMED BY PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

WE HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, GUN FIRE ALSO BEING USED AND WE KNOW BECAUSE THE UN HAS PUT IT OUT AND I WILL READ THIS TO YOU THAT THE UN STATS ITSELF ON HOW MUCH AIDE IS BEING INTERCEPTED AND NOT --YOU KNOWARRIVING AT ITS INTENDED DESTINATION.

SOME 2,000 --27,434 TONS HAS BEEN COLLECTED BUT 23,353 TONS WAS INTERCEPTED BETWEEN --19th OF MAY TO THE 31st OF JULY.

THAT BASICALLY SHOWS IN CASE MY MATH IS NOT CLEAR THAT THE INTERCEPTED.

WE HAVE PICTURES OF SOME OF THAT.

WHO IS DOING THE INTERCEPTING?

>> REMIND TEAR WE HAVE THESE NETWORKS INSIDE GAZA.

WE HAVE THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS.

WE HAD A SYSTEM FOR DISTRIBUTING VAST AMOUNTS OF AIDE WITHOUT IT BEING LOOTED.

THAT'S ALL BEEN DISMANTLED SO WE ARE TRYING TO PUT THAT BACK IN PLACE.

THE REALITY AND YOUR STATS BACK THAT UP IS THAT OUR DRIVERS WHEN THEY PICK UP THE FOOD, THE MEDICINE, THE SHELTER MATERIALS, FROM THE CHECKPOINTS AND THE CROSSING POINTS THEY THEN HAVE TO RUN THE GAUNTLET THROUGH AREAS FULL OF STARVING DESPERATE CIVILIANS AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE AIDE WE ARE TRYING TO SHIFT THROUGH THOSE TERRITORIES IS BEING LOOTED BY THESE CIVILIANS.

WE ARE SEEING IT THEN END UP ON THE MARKET.

WE SEE YOU KNOW --MARKER OF THE LEVELS OF STARVATION AND HUNGER THAT IS HAPPENING.

THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THAT HAPPENING IS TO FLOOD GAZA WITH AIDE.

BY HAVING HUNDREDS OF TRUCKS RATHER THAN FEWER THAN A HUNDRED I DAY YOU BASICALLY TAKE AWAY THE LOOTING.

YOU WILL DESTROY THOSE CRIMINAL NETWORK THAT ARE TRYING TO EXPLOIT THE SITUATION AND YOU WILL DEAL WITH THE DESPERATE LEVELS OF STARVATION THAT THE CIVILIANS ARE EXPERIENCING RIGHT NOW.

SO IT'S ONLY BY SCALING UP MASSIVELY THAT WE WILL REDUCE THE LEVEL OF THAT LOOTING.

>> NOW AGAIN WITH THESE TRUCK LOADS PARKED NEAR THE CROSSING POINT AND WITH ALL THE VIDEOS IT PLAYS IN TO A DIFFERENT STORY THAT ISRAEL IS SAYING THAT HAMAS IS LOOTING THE AIDE AND THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, PUT THIS BLOCK ON BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT HAMAS TO GET THE AIDE AND THEY BLAME HAMAS FOR THIS, YOU KNOW HORRIBLE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

ISRAELI MILITARY OFFICIALS AND UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE SAID TO VARIOUS REPORTERS AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD HAMAS THEFT, PARTICULARLY OF UN AIDE.

SO, DOES THIS STORY ALSO PLAY INTO THE DIFFICULTY IN GETTING THAT AIDE WHICH IS JUST SITTING THERE SHIFTED TO WHERE IT'S NEEDED?

>> WE ARE NOT GOING LEAVE ANY AIDE STACKED UP THAT WE COULD BE DISTRIBUTING.

ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF OUR UN AIDE ARE OF ONES WE CAN'T MOVE BECAUSE OF RED TAPE, BECAUSE WE CAN'T GET THE PERMISSIONS OR BECAUSE OF THE SECURITY CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.

HAMAS ARE TO BE CONDEMNED FOR CONTINUING TO HOLD HOSTAGES.

THEY MUST RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.

THEY ARE TO BE CONDEMNED FOR OCTOBER THE 7th AND I HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH SURVIVORS, ONE OF FOUR WERE TAKEN AWAY OR KILLED IN ONE AREA ON THAT DAY.

THERE'S PLENTY TO CONDEMN HAMAS FOR.

WE AREN'T HAVING OUR TRUCKS MASSIVELY DISROUTED BY HAMAS.

CAN WE GUARANTEE THAT EVERY GRAIN OF FLOUR AVOIDS THEM WHEN A LOT ENDS UP ON THE MARKET AND THEY HAVE THE GUNS AND MONEY TO STEAL IT?

OF COURSE WE CAN'T.

I AGREE WITH THOSE STUDIES IN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL THAT HAVE SHOWN THAT THIS IS ONLY A FRACTION OF WHAT WE ARE ABLE TO GET THROUGH THAT IS BEING TAKEN BY HAMAS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHAT THE UN IS DESCRIBING FOR MONTHS WHEN WE HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO HAS REACHED CIVILIANS AND THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT RIGHT NOW.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU THEN ABOUT THESE SO-CALLEDPROTECTION GROUPS.

THERE SEEM TO BE SEVERAL TYPES OF GROUPS.

SOME OF THESE GROUPS AND ORGANIZED CRIME, SOME WHO HAVE BEEN RECRUITED BY ISRAEL TO TRY TO FIGHT HAMAS.

THEN THERE ARE PROTECTION GROUPS, YOU KNOW WHO LOCALS WHO HELP SECURE THE AIDE TRUCKS INSIDE GA DAY WHICH ARE BROUGHT IN BY THE --THE AIDE IS BROUGHT IN BY YOU AND NGO.

THEY ARE --ONE OF THEM, AN ANONYMOUS MEMBER SAID THAT THE MAIN RISKS WE FACE INCLUDE LOOTERS, LARGE CROWDS TRYING TO STEAL THE AIDE AND BEING HIT WITH STONES OUR PRESENCE DURING THIS PERIOD IS A HUMANITARIAN NEED IN THE ABSENCE OF PROPER SECURITY, AT RISK PEOPLE NEED FOOD AND MEDICINE AND SAID IF A FUNCTIONING AUTHORITY IS RESTORED THEN OUR ROLE ENDS HERE.

WE HAVE GOT VIDEO OF THEM SECURING THE TRUCKS OF THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN.

SO, ALL THESE CLANS AND PROTECTION GANGS AND ALL THE REST OF IT SOME OF --YOU KNOW CRIMINALS, SOME ARE REAL.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

IS IT BECAUSE THERE JUST IS NO GOVERNMENT?

THE FIGHT AGAINST HAMAS HAS SO DESTROYED THEIR FIGHTING USED TO DO, YOU KNOW, SOME FORM OR FASHION BEFORE.

>> YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT FOR MONTHS NOW THERE'S BEEN A COMPLETE BREAK DOWN OF WHAT LAW AND ORDER AND WHAT THE INFRASTRUCTURE THERE WAS INSIDE GAZA SO THEY ARE RELYING ON COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS, LOCAL NGO'S TO HELP SECURE OUR TRUCKS AND HELP TO DISTRIBUTE WHAT WE CAN GET INTO ENSURE THAT AS MUCH OF POSSIBLE AS IT GETS TO MOTHERS, FAMILIES, CIVILIANS, THOSE WHO ARE STARVIFG.

THOSE WHO ARE WEAKER AND UNABLE TO GET TO THE NORMAL DISTRIBUTION POINTS.

WE DO REBUY ON THOSE COMMUNITY CONVERSATIONS AND NETWORKS.

WHEN I WAS COMING OUT OF GAZA A FEW MONTHS AGO ON MY LAST VISIT I DROVE ACROSS ON --AS PART OF OUR CONVOY NO MAN'S LAND TO THE CROSSING POINT.

YOU COULD SEE IN FACT THEY HIT THE TRUCK JUST IN FRONT OF ME.

MANY OF THOSE ARMED GROUPS THAT ARE OPERATING IN THAT SPACE ARE GROUPS OPPOSED TO HAMAS BUT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO OPERATE AROUND THOSE CROSSING POINTS AND VERY NEAR TO THE ISRAELI LINES FOR SOME TIME.

THEY HAVE BEEN A REAL THREAT TO OUR TRUCKS.

>> AND YOU KNOW THERE'S OBVIOUSLY MARKETS THERE BUT WE HEAR FROM PEOPLE THAT THE MARKETS ARE ALMOST GOT NOTHING THERE.

I'M JUST LOOKING AT A NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE WHICH QUOTES THE STAT THAT SUGAR FOR INSTANCE A KILO OF SUGAR, 89-CENTS BEFORE THE WAR, $106 NOW.

LET'S JUST GO DOWN TO FLOUR, $25 FOR A KILO, $305 NOW.

LET'S GO TO DIAPERS FOR KIDS.

$8.61 BEFORE THE WAR FOR A PACK OF 40, NOW $149 AND, AND, RICE A STAPLE, $2.38 FOR A KILO BEFORE THE WAR, 20 NOW.

WHEN IT'S AVAILABLE.

SO IN OTHER WORDS PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO JOBS, NO BANKING SYSTEM, NO MONEY HOW DO THEY -- WHAT ARE THEY MEANT TO DO IN THESE MARKETS?

>> IT'S JUST DESPERATE ISN'T IT?

OF COURSE I HEAR EVERY DAY FROM OUR TEAM ON THE GROUND MANY OF WHOM ARE HUNGRY THEMSELVES.

ESCALATION IN THOSE PRICES.

TENS OF DOLLARS FOR A TOMATO.

THE DESPERATION, A COLLEAGUE WAS ABLE TO BRING IN SOME BITS OF CHICKEN THE OTHER DAY AND YOU COULD SEE, HOW HUNGRY OUR COLLEAGUES WERE.

I GOT SLIGHTLY BETTER FIGURES SAYING THAT THE PRICES MAY BE STARTING TO COME DOWN, CERTAINLY FOR FLOUR WHICH IS A SIGN THAT EVEN THE LITTLE WE HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO GET THROUGH IS STARTING TO HAVE AN IMPACT BUT THE ONLY WAY TO BRING THE PRICES DOWN IS TO GET EVERY DAY AND START TO FLOOD GAZA WITH FOOD.

THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS US TO DO.

ITS CLEARLY WHAT EUROPEAN LEADERS, WORLD LEADERS, WORLD OPINION WANTS TO DO.

ALSO REALLY IMPORTANTLY WE HAVE TO GET REPORTERS IN.

I MEAN YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE TELLING THIS STORY FROM LONDON.

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE INTERNATIONAL REPORTERS AT THE BORDER.

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE THEM IN THE PLANES FLYING OVER BUT NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH OF WHAT THEY SEE BELOW THEM.

WE NEED TO GET THE MEDIA IN AND THEN GET THE REAL STARE.

>> AS YOU KNOW WE OBVIOUSLY AGREE WITH THAT MANY OF OUR ORGANIZATIONS HAVE SIGNED PETITIONS TO REQUEST JUST THAT ACCESS.

TOM FLETCHER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> AS IMAGES OF GAZA CHILDREN FILL EVERY SCREEN SUPPORT FOR THE WAR HAS PLUNGED IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH IS ISRAELI BIGGEST BACKER.

WITH IN ISRAEL ITSELF THERE IS A GROWING REJECTION OF THE GOVERNMENT'S ACTIONS.

A MAJOR TV REPORTER AND PRESENTER THIS WEEK CALLED IT A MORAL FAILURE.

LET'S GET INTO THIS NOW WITH A SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE FORMER AND THE LATE PRIME MINISTER.

HE IS NOW A FELLOW AT THE ISRAEL POLICY FORUM.

A UNITED STATES ORGANIZATION DEINDICATED TO A TWO SOLUTION.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I START BY ASKING YOU TO REACT REALLY TO THE ACCUSATION OF A MORAL FAILURE, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE STARVATION OF CHILDREN AND OTHER CIVILIANS.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU THINK THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO FULLY CHANGE IT'S, YOU KNOW ITS ACCESS FOR TONS AND TONS AND TONS OF TRUCKS TO GO IN?

>> THE POINT TO CHANGE WAS A YEAR AGO WHEN THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVES OF THE WAR HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED AND THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVES WERE BASICALLY THREE.

TWO OF WHICH WERE ACCOMPLISHED A YEAR AGO AND THAT IS DISMANTLING THE HAMAS MILITARY FORMATION AND GOVERNMENT.

THE THIRD WAS HOSTAGES AND THEY ARE STILL THERE, 50 OF THEM, 20 ALIVE.

THAT WAS A TIME TO CHANGE COURSE.

WHEN THE WAR DRAGS ON BEYOND ITS PURPOSEFUL PHASE MANY THINGS START TO GO WRONG INCLUDING AND PERHAPS MAINLY AT THE MOMENT THE ISSUE OF HUMANITARIAN SITUATIONS.

CATASTROPHE OF HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA.

I BELIEVE THAT IN ISRAEL THERE IS A SEA CHANGE OVER THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS.

I THINK THAT THREE FACTORS CONTRIBUTE TO THE CHANGE.

ONE WAS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MOVED FROM A FUTILE EXPRESSIONS OF CONCERN TO TAKING ACTUAL STEPS AND IT ATTRACTED ATTENTION BACK HOME HERE.

THE SECOND THING THAT HAPPENED WAS THE ISRAELI MEDIA WHICH FOR A LONG TIME SELF CENSORED THOSE IMAGES.

THERE WAS A DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT THE WORLD SAW AND WHAT ISRAEL SAW AND THAT WAS NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

IT WAS SELF BY THE MEDIA.

SUDDENLY GAVE UP ON IT AND DECIDED THAT YOU CANNOT REALLY SPARE ISRAELIS WHAT IS GOING ON IN OUR NAME IN GAZA.

THE THIRD THING TO OUR SHAME IS THE DOMESTIC POLITICS.

THAT IS TO SAY ONCE THE GOVERNMENT WENT INTO A THREE MONTH RECESS SUDDENLY THE PRIME MINISTER HAS THE POLITICAL ROOM TO THOSE WHO HOLD THE POWER HE NEEDS COALITION, THE EXTREME ELEMENTS IN ISRAELI SOCIETY AND SUDDENLY HAS THE FREEDOM TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND ALLOW EVERYTHING THAT WAS PROHIBITED PREVIOUSLY INCLUDING THE AIR DROPS, AND THE OPENING OF THE PASSAGES THAT YOU DISCUSSED PREVIOUSLY.

>> BUT HE IS NOT DOING THAT YET.

THERE IS SOME --SOME HAVE CALLED IT PERFORMANCE AIR DROPS THAT ISRAEL IS DOING AND OTHER ARAB NATIONS AND OTHER ALLIES ARE CONTRIBUTING TO.

THE BIG OPENING OF THE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF TRUCKS PER DAY THAT NEED TO GO IN JUST TO ACHIEVE SOME KIND OF BASELINE NORMAL NUTRITION AND MEDICAL SITUATION IS NOT HAPPENING YET.

THERE'S A CONSTANT BLAMING OF WHO IS TO BLAME FOR THE VIOLENCE AND THE LOOTING.

>> IT MAY BE WISHFUL THINKING ON MY PART BUT I HAVE GOT THE SENSE THAT IT HAS BEEN RAMPING UP ON A DAILY BASIS.

NOT TO THE EXTENT IT USED TO BE SIX TO 700 TRUCKS A DAY THAT YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST NOTED IS ESSENTIAL TO FLOOD THE MARKET BUT STILL I --I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE IN THE PROCESS NOT THE AIR DROPS BUT RATHER THE GROUND TRANSITION INCLUDING FROM EGYPT.

THERE WAS AN ISRAELI TEAM IN C AI RO LAST WEEK TO COORDINATE THIS.

MIND YOU IT WAS ONLY ON SATURDAY, THIS LAST SATURDAY THAT ANYTHING --THEY HAD AN EMERGENCY CABINET SESSION, REALIZING THAT THEY NEED THE INTERNATIONAL TSUNAMI IS APPROACHING OUR SHORES AND THAT THE THE ISRAELI PUBLIC IS A IS AWARE OF IT AND I THINK THAT THE DECISION MADE ON SATURDAY ARE MANIFESTING THEMSELVES TO SLOW LY BUT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND I HOPE THAT THE ENVOY WILL PUT AN END TO THE MUTUAL ACCUSATIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE U IN, AND EVERYBODY ELSE AND RATHER THAN FOCUS ENERGY ON WHO IS TO BLAME COORDINATE AMONG THEM SO THAT THINGS CHANGE.

>> I NOTICED AND I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU SAID.

NETANYAHU HAVE A SATURDAY CABINET MEETING AND THAT OF COURSE AS MOST UNDERSTAND IS SHABB AT AND WHO HAVE EXCLUDED THE HARD-LINERS WHO CONTROL HIS GOVERNMENT FROM ATTENDING.

HE WAS ABLE TO MOVE A LITTLE BIT, HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF ROOM ON A SATURDAY.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE AMERICANS.

YOU HAVE SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.

YOU HAVE CERTAINLILY, YOU KNOW HAS BEEN AROUND THE PEACE PROCESS, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SECURE ISRAEL AND THE RIGHTS OF PALESTINIANS IN A TWO STATE SOLUTION.

SO, IT HAS BEEN SAID AND IN FACT WHEN HE STOOD UP IN CONGRESS IN THE UNITED STATES, CHUCK SCHUMER THE MAJOR --YOU KNOW THE TIME THE DEMOCRATIC JEWISH LEADER OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE STOOD UP AND SAID ESSENTIALLY MY MAIN FEAR IS THAT ISRAEL WILL LOOSE AMERICA'S SUPPORT AND BE ISOLATED IF THIS KIND OF STUFF GOES ON AND THAT IS BAD FOR ISRAEL.

IT'S BAD FOR ISRAEL AND IT'S BAD FOR THE JEWS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT NOW BECAUSE AMERICAN JEWS ARE NOW HAVING APPARENTLY A CHANGE OF HEART ACCORDING TO POLLS.

THIS IS A STATEMENT FROM THE UNION FOR REFORM JUD AI SM WHICH MAKES UP THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN JEWS.

DENYING BASIC HUMANITARIAN AIDE CROSSES A MORAL LINE.

BLOCKING FOOD, WATER, MEDICINE CHILDREN IS NOT DEFENSIBLE.

LET US NOT ALLOW OUR GROOVE GRIEF TO HARDEN INTO INDIFFERENCE.

DOES IT FEEL LIKE A SEA CHANGE FOR YOU BECAUSE NEXT I WILL READ TO YOU THE POLLS THAT ALSO NOT LOOKING GOOD FOR ISRAEL RIGHT NOW.

THE POLLS IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YES.

I THINK WE ARE LOSING PRIMARILY THE YOUNGER GENERATION THAT FEEL THAT THEY CANNOT IDENTITY WITH THE ISRAEL AS IT IS GOVERNED TODAY AND I MAKE A SHARP DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS CONTROLLED BY THE MOST EXTREME ELEMENT IN ISRAELI SOCIETY WHO REPRESENT ABOUT UNDER 10% OF THE POPULATION, TO MUCH IN MY MIND BUT MARGINAL AND THE REST OF THE PUBLIC.

I MEAN IT IS NO ACCIDENT THAT OVER MONTHS NOW AND GOVERNMENT TO END THE WAR, BRING THE HOSTAGES BACK, EVEN IF THAT MEANS THAT HAMAS REMAINS.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN OPTION.

I THINK WE END THE WAR AND THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO HAMAS IN GAZA BUT EVEN IF THAT WASN'T THE CASE STILL MAJORITY WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.

AS YOU POINTED OUT THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT AMERICA'S SUPPORT IS A CENTRAL PILLAR OF ISRAELI NATIONAL SECURITY.

WE CANNOT AFFORD TO PLAY GAMES WITH THAT.

ANYONE IN ISRAEL WHO TOOK IT FOR GRANTED, GOT THEIR LESSON WHEN WE HAD THREE ROUNDS OF FIGHTING WITH IRAN, TWO LAST YEAR AND ONE THIS YEAR, THE 12 DAYS IN ALL THREE AMERICAN ORCHESTRATED REGIONAL SECURITY SYSTEM, UNDER THE CENTRAL COMMAND, HELPED PROTECT ISRAEL HUNDREDS OF MISSILES AND DRONES FROM IRAN.

THE STRATEGIC RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES ARE ESSENTIAL FOR ISRAEL YES LONG TERM SECURITY AND I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT IT.

I THINK IT'S REVERSIBLE BUT FOR THAT TO BE REVERSIBLE LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE WE NEED A CHANGE OF POLICY IN JERUSALEM.

>> I WILL ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

YOU LED ME RIGHT INTO IT.

A NEW POLL SHOWS AMERICAN APPROVAL OF THIS ISRAELI MILITARY ACTION AT 32%.

THAT'S A NEW LOW.

A POLL IN APRIL SHOWS 53% SHOWING UNFAVORABLE VIEWS OF ISRAEL EVEN THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF YOUNG REPUBLICANS.

WHEN YOU SAY WE NEED A CHANGE AND WE MUST HANG ONTO AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR OUR, FOR OUR SURVIVAL AND EXISTENCE A FORMER PRIME MINISTER FROM I GUESS YOUR PARTY, LABOR IS CALLING ISRAEL INCREASINGLY A PARIAH STATE BUT SAYING THAT --THEY HAVE TO --THERE HAS TO BE A RISE --A PEACEFUL, YOU KNOW UP RISING ESSENTIALLY AND --TO GET RID OF THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

DO YOU THINK --WHAT DO YOU THINK?

IS THAT --IS THAT --I MEAN IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU THINK IS POSSIBLE?

THE OPPOSITION LEADER SAID ISRAEL IS ON THE WAY TO BECOMING A PARIAH STATE THE SOUTH AFRICA OF YOR IF IT DOESN'T RETURN TO BEHAVING LIKE A SANE COUNTRY.

>> I WORRY ABOUT OUR STANDING IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY BUT I WORRY MORE ABOUT US LOOKING IN OUR OWN MIRROR.

OUR CONDUCT OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS HAS BEEN ANYTHING BUT THE ZIONIST VISION AND THE VALUES OF OUR DECK CONGRATULATIONS OF I HEARD BARACK AND OUR GOLAN AND OTHERS CALLING FOR A SIMILAR APPROACH.

I'M --I HAVE BEEN HUMBLED BY TWO MAJOR FAILURES TO PREDICT ISRAELI PUBLIC REACTION.

I DID NOT ANTICIPATE THE EXPLOSION OF PRODEMOCRACY ENERGY IN THE ISRAELI STREETS IN 2023 WHEN NETANYAHU WAS ORCHESTRATING A CAMPAIGN OF LEGISLATION TO UNDERMINE THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE ISRAELI JUDICIARY AND I DIDN'T EXPECT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS TO BE IN THE STREET FOR 39 WEEKS TO STOP IT AND THEYSUCCEEDED AND MY SECOND FAILURE WAS THAT AFTER OCTOBER 7th WITH THE --WITH THE --THE DEMONSTRATION OF THE WRONG STRATEGY.

OF FEEDING HAMAS AND THE BEAST TO THE POINT THAT IT EXPLODED IN OUR FACES.

THE ANGER ABOUT IT AND THE -- AND THE MONTHS THE GOVERNMENT WAS MIA WHEN WE NEEDED IT MOST FOR THOSE AFFECTED, THAT ANGER DID NOT MANIFEST AS I HAD EXPECTED WITH GREATER DEMONSTRATIONS THAN IN 23.

THERE ARE ALL KIND OF REASONS FOR IT, ALL KIND OF EXPLANATIONS, PROBABLY THE MOST CONVINCING IS THAT MOST ISRAELIS WERE BOTH EXHAUSTED AFTER 23 AND EVEN MORE FELT THAT IT WAS IMPROPER TO GO TO THE STREET AND DEMONSTRATE WHILE OUR CHILDREN ARE FIGHTING AS IT MIGHT BE MISUNDERSTOOD AS LACK OF SUPPORT WITH THE TROOPS.

SO WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE KIND OF DEMONSTRATIONS EVEN THOUGH WE DO HAVE DEMONSTRATIONS AND I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT ONE BUT I PREFERRED YOUR FORUM FOR ONCE.

WE WILL SEE MORE DEMONSTRATIONS BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WE WILL SEE THE KIND OF SHUTTING DOWN THE ECONOMY, SHUTTING DOWN THE COUNTRY TO THE POINT THAT THE GOVERNMENT COLLAPSES.

I THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE POLLS AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE ELECTION NEXT YEAR.

EITHER EARLY ELECTIONS EARLY IN THE YEAR OR AS SCHEDULED TOWARD THE END OF THE YEAR BUT I'M AFRAID WE HAVE TO SURVIVE A FEW MORENOS WITH THE GOVERNMENT DOMINATED BY SELF IDENTIFIED JEWISH SUPREMA CISTS.

SELF IDENTIFIED AS SUCH THAT NETANYAHU CHOSE TO ASSOCIATE HIMSELF WITH AND NOW HE IS DRAGGED BY THEM IN ALL DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

WE HAVE A PAUSE, THREE MONTHS OF THE GOVERNMENT RECESSED WHERE HE IS MORE FREE TO DO THE RIGHT THINGS BY WHAT WE BELIEVE SHOULD HAPPEN AND BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

LET'S HOPE THEY DOES THAT AND LET'S HOPE THAT THE ENVOY IS CARRYING WITH HIM GOOD ARGUMENTS IN ORDER TO HELP STEER NETANYAHU IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

>> THEY SAY AND I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE THAT ONLY THE UNITED STATES HAS THE LEVERAGE TO AFFECT NETANYAHU GIVEN HOW MUCH THEY SUPPORT AND HOW MANY WEAPONS AND HOW MUCH FINANCIAL AND OTHER MILITARY AIDE THEY HAVE GIVEN AND CONTINUE TO DO SO.

SO YOU HAVE SPENT A LIFETIME BEING --.

>> INCLUDING DURING THE STRIKE ON IRAN.

>> YES INDEED.

YOU HAVE SPENT A LIFETIME BEING PART OF THE PEACE PROCESS WHEN YOU WERE ADVISOR TO THE LATE PRIME MINISTER.

THE TWO STATE SOLUTION ENDGAME.

THE OSLO PROCESS YOU HAVE SEEN NOW PLENTY OF WORLD LEADERS, MANY OF THE --YOU KNOW THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL PERMANENT MEMBERS SAYING THEY WILL RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE IN THE FALL UNLESS THERE ARE MATERIAL CHANGES ESPECIALLY TOWARD A DAY AFTER WHICH WE HAVE SEEN NOTHING FROM NETANYAHU ON THAT.

DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS ANY WAY BECAUSE --TO RESOLVE THIS POLITICALLY IN THE ONLY WAY THAT IS ACTUALLY VIABLE THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN DOWN ON PAPER.

>> ISRAELI, PALESTINIAN RELATIONS AND THE TWO STATE SOLUTION WHICH I BELIEVE IN AS THE ONLY VIABLE OPOSITION IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BY OUTSIDE PRESSURE.

IT'LL COME FROM THE TWO PEOPLES JUST AS WE DID WITH EGYPT AND JORDON.

IT'LL COME FROM THE TWO PEOPLES.

ONE HAS TO ADMIT THAT AFTER OCTOBER 7th, OUR POSITIONS WERE HARDENS ON THE ISRAELI SIDE.

IN THE WAKE OF THE 22 MONTHS HARDENED ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE.

IF WE DO HAVE ANOTHER GOVERNMENT, A FEW MONTHS FROM NOW RUNNING ISRAEL IT WON'T BE A LOT WHO WILL RUN TO EMBRACE PRESIDENT ABBAS AND SIGN A PEACE TREATY.

I BELIEVE ANY ALTERNATIVE GOVERNMENT THAT EXCLUDES THE LUNATICS THAT I REFERRED TO EARLIER WILL CHANGE COURSE IN A VERY SUBSTANTIAL WAY EVEN THOUGH A TWO STATE SOLUTION MAY STILL REMAIN OVER THE HORIZON ENDING THE WAR IN GAZA, CHANGING COURSE BY TREATING THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AS A PARTNER RATHER THAN AN ENEMY, ARRESTING JEWISH TERRORISM ON THE WEST BANK, ENDING THAT RATHER THAN FUELING IT FROM INSIDE THE CABINET QUARTERS.

CHANGING COURSE ON THESE THINGS CAN OPEN UP A PATH FOR RELAXING TENSIONS, SEPARATING THE TWO PEOPLE'S IN A SECURE WAY WHILE TAKING CARE OF ISRAELI SECURITY CONCERNS AND ALLOWING AN ARAB COALITION TO HELP THE PALESTINIANS AND US REACH THE DESIRED OUTCOME.

>> OKAY.

>> A FEW YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

>> WE WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH THAT AT ANOTHER TIME.

THAT OBVIOUSLY IS THE ENDGAME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW TO THE UNITED STATES IT WASN'T SO LONG AGO THAT LAWMAKERS BOTH PARTY WAS WARNING ABOUT THE DANGERS OF TIKTOK.

THE HUGELY POPULAR APP OWNED BY A CHINESE BASED COMPANY.

LATELY SAYS OUR NEXT GUEST THE ALARM BELLS HAVE GONE SILENT.

GLENN WAS GENERAL COUNSEL OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY AND HERE IS HE WITH WALTER.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU HAVE AN ESSAY IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT THE TIKTOK BAN AND WHY IT HASN'T TAKEN PLACE.

IT'S --YOU KNOW THE VIDEO APP THAT HALF THE COUNTRY I THINK USES.

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BANNED.

WHY IS IT STILL IN OPERATION?

>> THIS IS A COMPLETELY CRAZY SADA.

IT SHOWS HOW WE APPROACH CHINESE TECH.

THIS WAS SUCH A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT JUST 15 OR 16 MONTHS AGO THAT BIPARTISAN MAJORITIES OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE DECIDED THAT THIS APP PRESENTED SUCH A RISK OF CHINESE INTERFERENCE AND POSSIBLE THEFT OF DATA THAT IT HADO BE BANNED IN NINE MONTHS IN IT DIDN'T GET OUT OF CHINESE HANDS.

IT WAS A VERY SERIOUS NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT THAT WAS REALLY URGENT AND THE CONGRESS TOOK UNPRECEDENTED --ADOPTED UNPRECEDENTED LEGISLATION.

WE HAVE NEVER BANNED A SOCIAL MEDIA APP BEFORE.

HERE WE ARE NOW JUST 15 OR 16 MONTHS LATER AND THE BANNED APP IS STILL IN GOOGLE'S APP STORE AND APPLE'S APP STORE.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS SAID HE WILL CONTINUE TO EXTEND THE BAN, NOT APPLY IT.

HE HAS DIRECTED HIS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO NOT ENFORCE THE BAN WHILE HE SEARCHES FOR A DEAL TO TAKE IT OUT OF CHINESE HANDS.

>> LET'S START WITH THE UNDERLYING QUESTION, NOT WHETHER THE LAW IS ENFORCED OR NOT FIRST WHICH IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH TIKTOK?

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BAN IT?

>> CRITICS HAVE POINTED OUT TO AT LEAST TWOOER THREE THINGS.

ONE IS BECAUSE IT'S OWNED BY -- OWNED BY A CHINESE COMPANY WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE PRC GOVERNMENT AND TO THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY THERE'S A FEAR THAT CHINA COULD DIRECT THEM TO DIRECT TIKTOK TO SEND MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION ON THE APP.

PERHAPS IN VERY SUBTLE WAYS.

YOU CAN IMAGINE A CASE WHERE CHINA IS THINKING OF INVADING T AI WAN SO FOR SIX MONTHS IT STARTS TO VERY SLOWLY INTRODUCE VIDEOS ON TIKTOK NOT DIRECTLY OUTRAGEOUS BUT JUST SUGGESTING THAT TIE IT'S NOT A GREAT PLACE, IT'S CORRUPT AND CHANGE PUBLIC OPINION.

THAT'S ONE CONCERN.

THE SECOND IS THAT CHINA BECAUSE IT'S NATIONAL SECURITY LAW GIVES IT POWER TO DO SO COULD DIRECT THE CORPORATE OWN OWNER TO TURNOVER ALL THE DATA IT COLLECTS AND TURN THAT INFORMATION OVER TO CHINA.

>> LET'S START WITH THAT ONE.

TURNING OVER THE DATA.

WHAT --IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THEY HAVE DONE THAT?

>> THERE'S NO DIRECT EVIDENCE THAT ANY OF THIS DATA HAS BEEN TURNED OVER IN A WHOLE SALE BASIS OR THAT ITS BEEN DIRECTED TO TURNOVER THE DATA.

THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW INSTANCES SOME USER DATA ABOUT AMERICANS WAS SENT TO CHINA AND ANALYZED.

IT SEEMS TO BE ISOLATED AND IF YOU BELIEVE TIKTOK THE UNITED STATES DATA IS NOT SENT OFF TO CHINA BUT IS EITHER KEPT IN SINGAPORE OR IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YOU SAID IF YOU BELIEVE THEM AND THEY SAY ONLY VETTED EMPLOYEES CAN GET VERY SPECIFIC THINGS AND IT'S OTHERWISE IN THE UNITED STATES DIVISION.

DO WE BELIEVE THEM?

>> I THINK MOST NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSIONALS SAY THAT IT'S UNREALISTIC TO THINK THAT TIKTOK WOULD REFUSE A DIRECT ORDER OF THE GOVERNMENT OF CHINA TAKE TURNOVER DATA.

IF IF THERE WAS A CRISIS WHERE CHINA WANTED TO GET DATA PERHAPS IT COULD REVEAL INTERESTING TRENDS.

THEY PROBABLY AREN'T INTERESTED IN WHICH DANCE VIDEO A TEEN IN WICHITA LOOKS LIKE.

A LOT OF GOVERNMENTS HAVE ACCOUNTS.

IT COULD BE POSSIBLE TO TRACE WHO WATCHES CERTAINLY GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTS.

PERHAPS THEY COULD COMBINE THAT WITH OTHER DATA THAT THEY COLLECT ON PEOPLE TO FIGURE OUT WHO WAS A CIA AGENT, WHO IS IN THE AMERICAN MILITARY, ET CETERA.

YOU COULD SEE A BAD USE.

>> IN YOUR PIECE YOU KIND OF CALL THAT OVER HYPED IN A WAY.

IS IT?

>> YOU KNOW I THINK --TO SOME EXTENT YES.

THERE IS A RISK.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY THERE IS NO RISK.

THE RISK OF IT BEING TURNED OVER IN A MEANINGFUL WAY THAT WILL HAVE STRATEGIC VALUE TO CHINA IS PRETTY LOW.

YES OF COURSE IN A CONFLICT IT COULD BE DANGEROUS BUT WE COULD SHUT IT OFF IF WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF A CONFLICT.

MY GUESS IS THAT IT'S A RISK, SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF.

WITH VERY WAYS OF MITIGATING THE RISK.

MY CONCERN IS MORE ABOUT THE DISINFORMATION.

>> LET'S LOOK AT THE IDEA THAT TRUMP IS NOT ENFORCING THIS VOTED FOR.

HOW CAN HE GET AWAY WITH THAT?

>> THERE IS --A LEGAL ISSUE OF COURSE AS TO WHETHER THE PRESIDENT CAN JUST REFUSE TO ENFORCE OR DECIDE TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH LAWS HE WANTS TO ENFORCE.

THE CONSTITUTION HAS SAID THAT'S PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS TO EXECUTE THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES.

I SUPPOSE ONE COULD ARGUE THERE IS SOME SORT OF DISCRETION IN DECIDING WHAT LAWS TO ENFORCE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S REALLY APPROPRIATE HERE.

THIS ISN'T A QUESTION OF A PROSECUTOR DECIDING NOT TO PROSECUTE SOMEONE THAT IS JAYWALKING, THIS IS A PASSED BY BIPARTISAN MAJORITIES OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

UPHELD BY THE SUPREME COURT AND IF THERE EVER WAS A STATUE WE WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE WAS ENFORCED IT WOULD WOULD BE A NATIONAL SECURITY STATUTE.

ON TRUMP'S SIDE HE SAID FOR NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS HE WANTS MORE AUTHORITY TO CONTINUE TO DELAY THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS WHILE HE LOOKS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY IMPLEMENTATIONS.

HE LOOKS AT WHAT TARIFFSES.

HE IS LOOKING AT IT FROM A DIFFERENT PICTURE.

I MIGHT ADD IT DOESN'T GIVE HIM AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

IS HE CLAIMING ON HIS OWN.

>> IT WAS I THINK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO SENT LETTERS TO THAT EFFECT AND SHE SAID THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DETERMINED THAT A SHUT DOWN OF TIKTOK WOULD INTERFERE WITH THE EXECUTION OF THE PRESIDENT'S CONSTITUTIONAL DUTIES TO TAKE CARE OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE UNITED STATES.

EXPLAIN THAT ARGUMENT TO ME.

>> AS I SAID THE STATUTE IS QUITE CLEAR.

SO NUMBER ONE THE STATUTE REQUIRES ENFORCEMENT.

THERE'S NOTHING ABOUT IT THAT SAY ITSELF CAN'T BE ENFORCED ON THESE TERMS BY THE PRESIDENT.

WE HAVE NOT GENERALLY HAD ANY SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT THAT SAID THE PRESIDENT --IN USING HIS POWERS AS MANNER CHIEF HAS THE ABILITY TO SUSPEND OR NOT NOT A GENERAL RULE.

SO, IT'S A LEGAL QUESTION.

LEGALLY QUESTIONABLE.

AS I SAID THE PRESIDENT IS MAKING ASSERTION.

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.

THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY AREN'T GOING TO CROSS HIM.

EVEN THE DEMOCRATS ARE SORT OF CAUGHT A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO LOOK WEAK ON CHINA EITHER SO THEY ARE -- SORT OF WAITING TO SEE HOW THIS ALL TURNS OUT.

IT'S A SOMEWHAT DELICATE SITUATION.

THE PART THAT CONCERNS ME MOST BEYOND THE LEGAL POINT OF WHETHER THE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO ENFORCE OR DECIDE WHICH LAWS TO ENFORCE AND THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT LEGAL POINT I DON'T WANT TO MINIMIZE IT BUT IS THE FACT THIS IS IT A LITTLE BIT OF A BOY WHO CRIED WOLF SITUATION.

IF WE HAVE A NATIONAL SECURITY STATUTE THAT WAS PASSED ON AN U RT ENT BASIS.

IT WAS THE REMEDY IN THE STATUTE.

THE BAN WAS ADOPTED WITHOUT ANY HEARING.

THIS WAS SO URGENT THAT CONGRESS JUST RUSHED IN AND DECIDED IT WAS CRITICAL AND NOW 16 MONTHS LATER EVERYBODY IS SAYING WELL, WE CAN WAIT A LITTLE BIT.

LET'S JUST WAIT AND WE HAVE AN APP THAT HALF OF AMERICANS OR A THIRD OF AMERICANS USE.

65% OF TEENS ARE USING AROUND THE COUNTRY.

IT'S BANNED ON MILITARY PHONES, GOVERNMENT PHONES, MOST STATE GOVERNMENT PHONES.

SO, IS THIS REALLY A NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE AND IF YOU WERE AN AVERAGE CITIZEN YOU WOULD SAY MAYBE IT'S NOT SUCH A BIG DEAL.

HOW ABOUT WHEN THE NEXT NATIONAL SECURITY SAYS ITS SUPPORT TO DO AND THE POPULATION SAID WE USED TIKTOK FOR YEARS.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT ERODING THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATUTES.

>> SO DOES THAT MEAN YOU THINK WE SHOULD JUST QUICKLY BAN IT?

>> I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THE ENTIRE IDEA OF BANNING THE TIKTOK WAS A BAD IDEA AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED WE ADOPT SOME VERSION OF A STRATEGY TO ABOUT CHINESE RISKS WE HAVE -- I HAVE A LOT OF OTHER RISKS THAT COME BEFORE THIS ONE AND SO I WOULD BE FOCUSING ON THE --THOSE.

TIKTOK IS A RISK.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT ISN'T BUT I THINK WE HAVE OTHER WAYS OF MITIGATING IT.

SO I --I WOULD SAY THAT --THE EYE TALE SOLUTION WOULD BE IF CHINA WILL GO HEAD AND RELEASE THE FORMULA AND WE CAN HAVE A --A REAL SALE.

THAT WOULD BE A FINE WAY OF DOING IT.

A SALE AND THE APP IS PUT IN AMERICAN HANDS AND THAT WOULD SOLVE IT.

I THINK THAT JUST CONTINUING TO EXTEND THE BAN ERODES SOME CONCERNS HERE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT APPROACH.

>> WHY HASN'T THERE NOT BEEN A LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THE FACT THAT TRUMP HAS NOT ENFORCED THIS BAN?

>> IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHO WOULD HAVE LEGAL STANDING TO DO THAT.

ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS HAVE BEEN RELATIVELY QUIET THOUGH THE CHINA SELECT COMMITTEE HAS --HAS SAID HE IS VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE SITUATION CAN.

A NUMBER OF THE REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID THAT TOO.

WHO WOULD HAVE THE STANDING TO CHALLENGE IT IS NOT TOTALLY CLEAR.

MAYBE ONE OF THE APP STORES SUCH AS APPLE OR GOOGLE MAY SEEK TO --GET AN INJUNCTION AS TO IF THE PRESIDENT HAS AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

IT'S NOT IN THEIR INTEREST TO MAKE WAVES.

THEY ARE BETTER OFF JUST LETTING THE APP CONTINUE.

THE AVERAGE CITIZEN DOESN'T HAVE STANDING TO CHALLENGE THIS LAW.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A LEGAL PROBLEM.

>> AS YOU MENTIONED THERE WAS A SUPPOSED TO BE A NEGOTIATED SALE THAT WOULD --IN A COMPLETION WAY THE FORMULA THAT'S CONTROLLED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT WOULD BE PUT INTO ANOTHER GROUP AND AN AMERICAN COMPANY COULD BUY IT.

IS THAT FEASIBLE AND WHAT'S THE STATUS OF THAT?

>> THIS SALE WOULD IF IT WAS REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN IN TERMS OF THE STATUTE WHICH HAS TWO BASIC REQUIREMENTS.

GET RID OF THE BAN.

IF THE APP IS NO LONGER CONTROLLED BY A CHINESE GROUP WHICH MEANS THEY CAN'T UNION 20% OF THE STOCK AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THAT THERE IS NO OPERATIONAL RELATIONSHIP.

THAT'S THE MAGIC WORDS OF THE STATUTE BETWEEN CHINA AND EITHER THE FORMULA OR THE USER DATA.

IF YOU SAY HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO A DEAL THAT --IN WHICH WE CAN SEPARATE THIS COMPLETE CLEANLY AND FROM CHINA ASSUMING THAT PRESIDENT XI WILL ALLOW THAT.

EVEN IF WE GOT OVER THAT AND THE PRESIDENT SAID I WILL DO A DEAL FOR TARIFFSES AND WE WILL LET IT GO.

FIRST OF ALL ITS UPDATED DAILY BY ENGINEERS INCHINA.

THAT IS GOING TO HAVE TO SHIFT INTO AMERICAN HANDS OR WHOEVER OWNS THE APP.

USER DATA WILL HAVE TOO BE IN THE UNITED STATES.

ORACLE SAID THEY ARE HAPPY TO STORE THE DATA IN THEIR CLOUD BUT THEN YOU HAVE ALL SORTS OF REALLY COMPLICATED OPERATIONAL QUESTIONS OF IF THE APP WAS IN THE UNITED STATES ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DESPERATE FORMULA, DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER ONE THAT TIKTOK EMPLOYS, ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD FOR IT'S ALMOST 1.6 BILLION USERS ALL ROUND THE REST OF THE WORLD HOW WILL THE TWO APPS WORK TOGETHER.

HOW WILL THEY MESH?

A KID IN BRAZIL WHO WATCHES AMERICAN TIKTOK VIDEOS TO GET THE LATEST DANCE MOVES WANTS TO HAVE ACCESS TO AMERICAN TIKTOK AND FRANKLY THAT IS TRUE FOR AMERICAN USERS TO.

GETTING THIS ALL TO MESH IN A OPERATIONAL WAY IS COMPLICATED.

FIGURING OUT A PRICE TAG IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO WANT TO CHARGE BILLIONS, TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR GIVING UP THIS APP AND THEY WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THE APP IS VIABLE ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD.

IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT A DEAL IS EASY.

>> YOU SAY WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THERE IS SOME RISK.

>> I WOULD PROBABLY GO BACK TO SOME VERSION OF INSISTING THERE BE AMERICAN LAYERS OF OVERSIGHT TO TRY TO CHECK OR STOP DISINFORMATION IF WE SAW IT STARTING TO APPEAR ONLINE AND ALSO THE ONE THING WE CAN DO BECAUSE IT'S POSSIBLE IS MAKE SURE THAT ALL USER DATA IS LOCKED DOWN IN THE UNITED STATES AND CAN'T BE TAKEN TO CHINA.

THERE WOULD BE --THERE SHOULD WE WAYS OF DOING THAT.

I THINK THAT WOULD GO A LONG WAY FOR DOING IT.

ON A BROADER LEVEL CONGRESS COULD GO BACK AND PASS PRIVACY LEGISLATION WHICH ITS BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR 20 YEARS.

THAT WOULD GO A STEP TOWARD ADDRESSING PEOPLE'S CONCERNS OVER USER DATA.

IT WOULD APPLY TO FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM AND TWITTER.

THERE ARE STEPS WE CAN TAKE.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THIS IS A LOOK AT A LARGER PROBLEM WHICH IS HOW WE DEAL WITH TECHNOLOGY THAT COMES FROM CHINA.

EXPLAIN SOME OF THOSE OTHER PROBLEMS.

>> SO WE HAVE A PATTERN IN THE UNITED STATES, PROBABLY FOR GOOD REASON OF LETTING TECHNOLOGY FLOURISH, ET CETERA WHICH IS ALL GOOD SUBPOENA THEN AFTER FLAWS BECOME CLEAR, AFTER MISUSE, AFTER SAFETY PROBLEMS, WHETHER IT'S AIRPLANES, CARS, ELECTRIC SIMMONS, YOU NAME IT WE THEN START TO REGULATE FOR SAFETY AND RISK REASONS.

IN THE CASE OF CHINESE APPS IT'S THE SAME ISSUE WHICH IS WE HAVE ALLOWED A LARGE NUMBER OF CHINESE TECHNOLOGY, GOOD AND USEFUL AND INEXTENSIVE TO COME INTO HOMES AND BUSINESSES AND THEN LATER AFTER WE HAVE DONE THAT WE REALIZE THERE IS A --A USER DATA RISK.

THERE'S A POLITICAL RISK.

SOME CYBERSECURITY RISK SO WE HAVE IN I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THE MAJORITY OF HOMES BUT A VERY SIZABLE NUMBER OF HOMES TP ROUTERS WHICH ARE MADE IN CHINA.

THEY SEE EVERY PIECE OF INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC AND EMAIL THAT SOMEONE'S HOME OR BUSINESS GENERATES AND THAT --THERE IS HAVE TALKED ABOUT FOR TIKTOK THAT SOME OF THE DATA COULD BE INAPPROPRIATELY USED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.

ALMOST EVERY VIDEO CAMERA ARE MADE BY CHINA.

THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T GENERALLY MANUFACTURER VIDEO CAMERAS.

DEEP SEEK IS A POPULAR CHINESE APP HOSTED ON CLOUD SERVERS HOSTED IN THE UNITED STATES AND IS USED BY AMERICAN USERS.

WE HAVE A PATTERN OF USING --.

>> THE AI COMPETITION TO CHAT GPT.

>> EXACTLY.

MY POINT IS THAT WE HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF CHINESE TECHNOLOGY IN HOMES AND BUSINESSES AND WE AWAKEN TO THE POTENTIAL RISKS ONLY AFTER WIDESPREAD ADOPTION WHEN IT'S HARD TO DO SOMETHING TAKE IT AWAY, SHUT IT DOWN.

FOR EXAMPLE SEVERAL YEARS AGO THE GOVERNMENT WAS CONCERNED ABOUT T EQUIPMENT IN THE UNITED STATES TELL AGAIN SYSTEMS.

THE GOVERNMENT BANNED IT, THEY START ADDED A PROGRAM TO RIP OUT THE EQUIPMENT FROM UNITED STATES SYSTEMS.

IN THE CASE OF THAT EQUIPMENT THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE YOU BAN IT, RIP IT OUT OR NOT.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE OF TIKTOK.

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF LESSENING THE RISK.

WE HAVE CHINESE TECHNOLOGY IN PORT CRANES AT OUR VITAL PORTS.

PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT HOW IN A TIME OF CRISIS CHINA COULD SEND A MESSAGE PARALYZING THOSE CRANES AND CAUSING TRADE CHAOS.

THERE ARE A WIDE RANGE OF CHINESE TECH APPLICATIONS, MANY ARE USEFUL, MANY ARE GOOD, NOT SAYING WE SHOULD BAN THEM.

WE NEED TO HAVE A PRINCIPLED WAY OF LOOKING AT THIS RATHER THAN THE APPROACH WE NOW HAVE WHICH SUDDENLY SOMETHING BECOMES THE ISSUE AND WE FOCUS ON THAT.

THAT'S NOT A GOOD WAY TO MANAGE THE OVERALL RISK OF CHINESE TECHNOLOGY.

IT'S USEFUL.

WE NEED TO ADDRESS THE RISKS.

>> GLENN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.