- This program was funded by the following: Laura & John Beckworth, BP Ameri Joe Latimer & Joni Hartgraves and also by and by.

A complete list of funders is available at aptonline.org and livefromlbj.org.

- It is about not giving up.

These fights are hard, and sometimes it takes a long time, but they are worth waging because they're winnable.

And I think that that's an important thing for people to hear when sometimes our politics feels so heavy.

You know, it's just such a hard for people to see a reason to st when sometimes it's very easy to disengage.

(uplifting music) (uplifting music continues) - Welcome to the LBJ Presidentia Library in Austin, Texas.

I'm Mark Updegrove.

As an author, journalist, television commentator, and CEO of the LBJ Foundation, I've had the privilege of talkin to some of the biggest names and best minds of our day about our nation's rich history and the pressing issues of our t Now we bring those conversations straight to you.

Our guest is Gretchen Whitmer, who has served as the Democratic of Michigan since 2019.

In my interview, which took plac the governor discussed her book "True Gretch" in which she relates to triumphs and trials of her political care and what she's learned about lif and leadership along the way.

Governor Whitmer, welcome.

- Thank you.

- We are delighted to have you h I wanna talk to you about your c to the Michigan governorship.

You earned the position in 2018 under a platform of "fix the dam which was your campaign slogan.

Now we're used to hearing things like "morning in America," and "yes, we can."

We've not heard a slogan quite like "fix the damn roads."

How did that come about?

- So, you know, it's so funny because so many people have said, "That was brilliant.

How did you come up with it?"

And it's a great question because I didn't really come up I knew that after the 2016 elect it was gonna be really important that I got into all 83 counties in Michigan.

And I know I'm here in Texas.

It's a big state.

Michigan's a physically large state as well.

When you are in the western end of the Upper Peninsula, you are as close to the state ca as our state capital is to Washi So it's a big state, and I wanted to spend the time getting around and asking people, "If I'm fortunate enough to get elected, what could I do that'll make your life better?"

And over and over again, whether I was in the Upper Peninsula or downtown Detroit or anywhere else, people said, "Fix the damn roads."

And that's what I heard, and I started repeating that because everyone felt like that.

I think it's a daily reminder.

When government's not getting the job done, you see it in your commute.

But it was really a conversation that I had in Flint, or with a woman from Flint, Mich I happened to be at the Detroit Children's Hospital, and it's always awkward as a pol to go into places that you're not really invited and try to engage people.

And obviously this is a place where parents have got serious c about their children's health.

And I happened upon a woman, and she was willing to chat, and I just said, "If I'm fortunate enough to get elected, what could I do that'll make your life better?"

And she looked me in the eye, and she said, "Fix the damn road And I did not expect that answer in that scene.

I thought we would talk about he or childcare or education.

And so I asked a follow-up quest I said, "Tell me more.

Why is that the top issue?"

And she explained, in her drive from Flint, where her other two boys are, to her son who's in the hospital in Detroit, she was traversing that every si and had recently hit a pothole that completely destroyed the rim on her wheel.

- Mm.

- And it sidelined her for a whole day.

It took hundreds of dollars out of her budget that could have gone for rent or childcare.

And she most importantly missed with her son in the hospital.

And so for me, it was kind of th that when the fundamentals aren' it's the people that are on the who really pay the dearest price And so fix the damn roads is, yes, it's about roads and infras but it's also about just helping the average person get ahead.

- You came to national, in some ways, international prom in 2013, when you made a very impassioned speech, an impromptu speech, on the floor of the Michigan Sta Can you talk about that speech and how it came about, Governor?

- Absolutely.

So at that point in my career, I was the Senate Democratic lead It sounds very impressive until you find out I was the leader of 12 in a body of 38.

And we were so outnumbered.

To put a little more context, I was one of four women in the Senate, total.

There were more men named John in the Senate than there were women at the tim And yet we were being confronted with an effort to make it harder for women to access reproductive healthcare in Michigan.

There's this mechanism in Michig where you can collect signatures and go around the governor's vet and just have a simple majority in both chambers of the legislat and that's what they were doing.

And so I knew I couldn't stop it but I also knew that they weren't holding any hearings.

They didn't have any committee meetings on the legislation because they just wanted to jam it through, and they knew it wasn't popular.

And so women didn't have an opportunity to weigh in.

Doctors didn't have an opportunity to weigh in.

And I thought I'm going to tell that I'd never shared publicly to personalize this issue and to put a face to all the peo that were gonna be impacted by this cruel legislation.

I had actually tried to talk one of my colleagues, a male, who, he and his wife had desperately wanted kids.

They'd gone through IVF.

She'd had a failed pregnancy, but it didn't complete.

The miscarriage didn't complete, and they had to go to the hospit for what we tend to call D&C, but it's an abortion.

And I'd asked him to tell the st and it was too hard for him to talk about it.

I hit me, how can I ask him to tell something so personal when I too have a story?

I'd been sexually assaulted when I was in college, and had I been impregnated, if this law had been in effect, I wouldn't have been able to hav for abortion care, just like he and his wife wouldn't have either.

It would've been tens of thousands of dollars out of their pocket for somethin that they desperately needed.

And so I shared the story for the first time publicly that I was sexually assaulted.

It didn't make a single difference in the vote that day, and it was really disheartening, depressing to be honest.

And I then I realized, "Oh gosh, I better call my dad," 'cause I had never told him that and I knew it would be in the ne But the next morning on my way to work, my staff called, and I was feeling really, really about the whole situation.

I bared my soul.

Didn't make an ounce of differen And my staff told me that we'd been inundated with phone calls and emails and because, of course, this was a w so faxes were still a mode of communication for people.

And my story resonated, or people were grateful that I s because they had a very similar And for me, it was a really hard but also gratifying to know that it made a difference, not in the legislation, but that started a 10-year quest for me to repeal that law.

And as governor, literally 10 ye to the day of that speech as gov I signed the repeal of that same legislation.

So I tell that story in the book because it is about not giving u These fights are hard, and sometimes it takes a long time, but they are worth waging because they're winnable.

And I think that that's an important thing for people to hear when sometimes our politics feels so heavy.

You know, it's just such a hard for people to see a reason to st when sometimes it's very easy to disengage.

- And the book is "True Gretch," and you also talk in the book about how you got that done, and it was by combating gerryman Talk about that.

- So there were a number of pieces to our success.

In Michigan, we've been very lopsided control politically.

For a long time, the legislature drew their own districts, and so the majority continued to stay in the majority because they picked their consti as opposed to constituents picking their legislators.

And we had a citizens' initiative that went through and changed how districts were drawn in Michigan.

They were taken away from the le and now it is the purview of a commission that draws the d and it is a bipartisan commissio And so in 2022, when I was up for reelection, after four years as governor with a very lopsided legislature we finally had fairly drawn dist We had reproductive freedom on o We amended our constitution to protect abortion rights in the wake of the Dobbs decisio And we ran a really terrific sla of candidates from top to bottom and we worked together in a way that hasn't always been the case in Michigan.

And for the first time in 40 years, I got reelected.

So we had the governor's office.

My attorney general, secretary of state, also got reelected.

But we flipped the House and the for the first time in 40 years.

We had the ability to set the ag - So one of the chapters in "True Gretch" is "Don't Let the Bullies Get You D And you relate an episode from 2 in which you were targeted by the president of the United States, Donald Trump, who called you "that woman from Can you talk about that episode and what it is like to be target by the president of the United S - Well, it's horrible.

I can tell you that.

During 2020, the pandemic began and hit Michigan really hard ear None of us wants to relive it, but it's important to remember that in the early days, Detroit, New Orleans, Chicago, and New York City were all hit incredibly hard.

We were inundated with COVID cas Our hospitals were full.

Our doctors and nurses were reus and gloves just to keep themselv as they were treating patients.

We had makeshift morgues that we had to set up outside of because so many people lost their lives to COVID, and we didn't have a place for t I mean, it was that dire.

And I was on a call with the nation's governors and the president, bipartisan group of governors.

All of us were on it.

And we were begging for masks an We didn't even realize, you know, the extent and impact of how COVID was spre but we needed these fundamentals for our healthcare providers.

And I remember the president say "I'm not the nation's shipping c You gotta go find these things on your own."

- Hmm.

- And I just remember, you know, just being shocked by that but also really scared because I knew we needed this de I knew what was happening in our hospitals.

And so I started going on national television.

The national media knew Detroit was really hot, and we needed to...

They wanted to know what was goi But I also look at it as an opportunity to ask for help.

And I had in one of the interviews made the observation that there was not a national st And so it was on us to find these implements.

Well, the former president took that personally and was really angry about that It was a fair critique.

It was an accurate critique.

But he didn't like it.

He took it personally.

And so in a press conference shortly after, he was with his vice president, Mike Pence, and he was talking to the media and said, "You know, if they don't treat you right, I say don't call 'em back."

And he said, "Mike, don't call that woman from Michigan."

And when that happened, I can tell you my stomach dropped because not that it hurt my feel I didn't care about that.

But I was worried that they would withhold things that I was asking for that they could provide, you know, the expertise, you know, help with our National Guard just in terms of trying to, you know, manage COVID.

And that was what I was most nervous about.

He didn't.

He couldn't in the end of the da But I went on, you know, "The Da Trevor Noah asked me to come on, and so I went on, and people had been sending me t that said, "that woman from Mich It became kind of this call to, you know, action.

And this great support started c of our Etsy community.

People were making "that woman from Michigan" coffee mugs and bumper stickers and T-shirts And so when I was on the Trevor Noah interview, I wore a T-shirt under my blazer that said, "That woman from Michigan" 'cause I thought, you know, I've learned over the years, if you're gonna disarm a bully, you take their weapon, and you make it your shield.

And so "that woman from Michigan has become like a community in M of people who support one anothe who, you know, were in the trenches during the pandemic.

And so what was intended to hurt me actually was somethin I'm really proud to be that woman from Michigan.

I think every woman from Michigan understands that that's not an insult.

That's a badge of honor.

- You stood it on its head.

- I did, and got a little laugh at it as well, which I think bullies hate to be laughed at.

So I think that that's another l If you can try to find some light in really dark times, it can be powerful.

- That same year, 2020, in the first months of the pandemic, you were the target of a conspir to kidnap and murder you.

Talk about that experience, Gove What did that feel like?

What were you thinking when it was revealed to you that this plot was being underta by a group of men who would do you and your family harm?

- It's one of the scariest things, I think, in today's politics, that there with platforms who are willing t to stoke hate and violence again that they just politically don't agree with.

I think it's a real danger to our democracy.

During the pandemic, I had a Republican legislature, overwhelmingly Republican.

It was before we fixed gerrymandering in Michigan.

And they worked pretty well with until the former president singl and then everything changed on the ground in Michigan.

My legislature started rejecting my orders, tried to sue me to take away my held events and shared stages with some of the people ultimately that were found guilt of plotting to kidnap and to kil We had demonstrations at our sta that looked a lot like January 6 but nine months beforehand, showing up with guns at our capi and on the front lawn of the res The state police, who does my security and does security, you know, individual states for their governors, the head of my detail sat down w and shared with me that there was this plot that there were a dozen or so me in Michigan who identified as militia people.

I think it's better to call people domestic terrorists- - Right.

- Who take up guns and threaten their fellow Americ And that they'd been infiltrated There was a person who was in it but saw how scary it was getting and went to the FBI and was an i So he said, "This is going on, but you're safe because we have someone infiltrating.

The FBI is on it.

The Michigan State Police is working with it.

But you need to know in the event it becomes public at some point."

And it was a shock.

And I remember just thinking, "How can people threaten to take my life away when I'm taking these important that other governors are as well to try to save lives in Michigan And so it was really hard.

And with the people demonstrating on the front lawn, we have a gate, but on the other side of the gate on the lawn, people were showing up with their automatic rifles and bullhorns and screaming horrible things at the house.

And my kids and husband and I all, you know, were there to hear it and be witness to it.

And so it was a really disturbing and scary time.

I didn't personally feel frighte because I knew the state police were on it.

But I'm always, even to this day thinking about all the people ar who if someone feels emboldened and feeling hateful and inspired to act on that, everyone around me could be in j And that's, I think, the scaries from my personal perspective.

- One of the messages in your book, Governor, is to extend grace, particularly to your opponents.

There's one chapter that's calle "Don't Take It Personally."

You write that Whitmers have short memories and thick skins.

How do you not take an incident like that personally?

- Well, I've always, you know, b to try to understand what's happ I talk in the book about my Grandma Nino, who said, "Even the meanest person might have pretty eyes.

Try to find something good in any situation," not that there's a whole lot of good to take from this particular situation.

But, you know, I would love to understand what happened ther what was going on with these particular, you know, domestic terrorists that compell to feel like this was a logical action to take.

We've got 330 million people in this country.

There were 14 who decided to tak and to threaten to kidnap and kill a governor.

They were the ones that, you know, were targeting me.

I'd like to understand what was I'd love to sit down with one of the men who ended up cooperating with the prosecution and showed remorse for their actions.

I'd love to sit down and ask those questions, and maybe I could learn somethin that'll make me a better governor or a better human being Maybe there's nothing to learn, but I'd like to try.

I feel like every situation is an opportunity to learn.

- And that's another message in the importance of listening, just as you listen to the woman "Fix the damn roads."

- Mm-hm.

- And I think one of the reasons you've been able to get so much done in Michigan is because you've been able to reach across the aisle effect Can you give examples of what you've accomplished in Michigan through bipartisansh - Well, one the things that I'm really proud of, and it happened before I was gov I was the senate minority leader and with a Republican governor.

When Obamacare was, you know, so that we could as a state take ac our Republican governor saw the wisdom in it and started to do the work toward making sure that Michigan had the Affordable and that we covered more people.

He couldn't do it on only Republican votes.

He didn't have the support out of his own party to do it.

Being in the minority, we didn't get a whole lot of help from the Republicans at the time but I recognized that we could play a big role and get people covered with heal And while there were some who thought, "Let them fail first and then come back and grovel to I said, "I don't wanna run the r that we're not successful here."

Because of our work together across the aisle, a million people have healthcare in Michigan now who wouldn't have otherwise.

But, you know, I was raised by a father who worked for George Romney when he was governor of Michigan, Mitt Romney's dad.

My mother worked for a long-term Democratic attorney general.

And so I came from this kind of bipartisan house.

We agreed on a lot more than we disagreed on, and it never was personal.

And so that's how I was raised, and that's why even when it's tough and ugly, I still hold quadrant meetings, meaning I bring the leaders of the Republicans and the Democrats from both chambers of my legislature in for regular meetings.

Sometimes they're not productive but I know one thing.

If you're not talking to one ano you're never gonna find common g - As you talk to your constituen around the state of Michigan and Americans as you travel across the country, do you think we are as divided as we are led to believe in the - I do think that there are some sharp divisions in our country right now, and I can tell you that there are sharp divisions in my state.

Michigan is a microcosm of the c We're the most diverse swing state in the country.

It's part of why we always rise to, you know, the center stage in big presidential years, and I anticipate that that will continue to be.

I don't think at the heart of it that we are as different, that we want different things.

But I think that social media and the advancements in technolo that have enhanced our lives als I think, cultivated silos where we're not talking to one a We're not even operating with the same set of facts, and that concerns me a great dea That's gonna be a hard one to really overcome.

But I do believe that if we're talking to one another, and we see the humanity in one a we got a much better shot of finding that common ground and seeing what we all want.

I think every one of us wants good schools, that all of our kids are prepared for the world and can be successful.

I know we all want, you know, to fix the damn roads.

These are the fundamentals that aren't inherently political, but we're not talking to each other enough.

And that's part of why I talk about it's important to listen, to try to see what do we have in so we can really focus on workin - There are many people who spec on what your political future lo What are your goals politically as you look forward in your care - I feel really lucky.

I have been in public service, elective public service, since the year 2000, other than a couple years between the legislature and when I became governor.

I love the state of Michigan.

I'm really proud to be a Michiga I think we've gotten a lot of great things accomplished.

I don't leave office until the end of 2026, and so I've got a lot more that to get accomplished in my time as governor.

But I don't know what happens af I know that I'll always be engag I know that I care deeply about who's leading our country, our state, who's leading at the local level And so I anticipate I'll have a of some sort or another.

It might be from a private citizen, but we'll see.

But I'm grateful that I've had all the opportunities that I've had.

Even on the hardest day, I think it's the best job I could have ever asked for.

- What is your proudest accompli - Well, this term we've gotten a lot don I've got a legislature that works with me a lot more.

We have a one-seat majority, so to your question earlier about bipartisanship, it remains important that we're always seeking to create bipartisan wins.

But you know, I'm the mom of a g and in Michigan, the LGBTQ+ comm did not have full civil rights protections until last year.

And I signed that bill with my daughter standing next to me, and it really was one of my proudest moments.

I have two daughters, and they both care about living in a place where they have the a to make their own decisions about their bodies.

And so when we got Michigan on the right side of ensuring women have that agency and that ability and that right and access to hea that was another big source of pride for me as well.

- Our guest has been "that woman from Michigan," Gretchen Whitmer.

Governor, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thank you.

(uplifting music) (uplifting music continues) (uplifting music continues) - [Announcer] This program was funded by the following: Laura & John Beckworth, BP Ameri Joe Latimer & Joni Hartgraves, and also by and by.

A complete list of funders is available at aptonline.org and livefromlbj.org.

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