>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> HE SAID HE DID NOT SAY THAT AND I BELIEVE HIM 100%.

>> TRUMP DEFENDS PETE HEGSETH AMID OUTRAGE OVER HIS ALLEGED KILL ORDER ON A SUSPECTED VENEZUELAN DRUG BOAT.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS.

>>> THEN -- >> THERE'S MORE WORK TO BE DONE.

THIS IS DELICATE.

IT'S COMPLICATED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF MOVING PARTS.

>> STEVE WITKOFF AND JARED KUSHNER HEAD TO MOSCOW FOR UKRAINE PEACE TALKS.

CHRISTIANE SPEAKS WITH FORMER U.S.

SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S APPROACH TO DIPLOMACY.

>>> AND -- >> NOBODY NEVER TELL ME THEY LOVED ME.

I THINK MY REAL FATHER, YOU KNOW, CONTINUOUSLY LIKE I FEEL LOVE.

>> FATHERLESS NO MORE, PASTOR TIM JOHNSON EMBEDS HIMSELF IN ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST INFAMOUS PRISONS.

I ASK HIM ABOUT HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY SETTING INMATES ON >>> ALSO AHEAD.

>> HOLIDAYS GAPS, ESPECIALLY THE ACHIEVEMENT GAPS BETWEEN WHITE STUDENTS AND BLACK STUDENTS, ESPECIALLY HAVE STARTED TO WIDEN.

>> THE STEEP DECLINE IN THE U.S.

EDUCATION SYSTEM.

NEW YORK MAGAZINE FEATURES WRITER ANDREW RICE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT WHAT'S BEHIND THIS WORRYING DIP.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

>>> WE BEGIN WITH OUTRAGE AND CONFUSION IN WASHINGTON OVER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S PRESSURE CAMPAIGN AGAINST VENEZUELA AND THE MADURO REGIME.

A BIPARTISAN GROUP OF LAWMAKERS IS CALLING FOR AN INVESTIGATION INTO A SO-CALLED DOUBLE-TAP STRIKE BY THE U.S.

MILITARY, TARGETING SURVIVORS FROM AN ALLEGED DRUG TRAFFICKING VESSEL.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THE SECOND STRIKE WASN'T AT HIS REQUEST AND HE'S BACKING HIS DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH WHO INSISTS ALL U.S.

STRIKES ON ALLEGED DRUG BOAT ARE LAWFUL.

>> NUMBER ONE, I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT HAPPENED AND PETE SAID HE DID NOT WANT THEM --HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT.

SO WE'LL LOOK INTO IT, BUT NO, I WOULDN'T HAVE WANTED THAT, NOT A SECOND STRIKE.

THE FIRST STRIKE WAS VERY LETHAL.

IT WAS FINE AND IF THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE AROUND, BUT PETE SAID THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

>> THE CONTROVERSY ERUPTING AFTER MONTHS OF DEADLY STRIKES AT SEA AND AS TRUMP HAS AGAIN THREATENED THAT THE U.S.

WILL BEGIN OPERATIONS AGAINST DRUG GANGS INSIDE VENEZUELA VERY SOON.

SO IS THE U.S.

EDGING CLOSER TO WAR WITH VENEZUELA?

OUR STEPHEN COLLINSON JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

FIRST, STEPHEN, ABOUT THESE STRIKES, WE NOW KNOW THAT CONGRESS, INCLUDING SOME REPUBLICANS, ARE WANTING TO LAUNCH INVESTIGATIONS INTO THESE OPERATIONS, SPECIFICALLY THAT OF WHAT OCCURRED ON SEPTEMBER 2nd, THAT THE PRESIDENT SAID HE WAS NOT AWARE OF THE SECOND STRIKE.

THE WHITE HOUSE AT THE TIME HAD RELEASED UNCLASSIFIED VIDEO WHAT MORE ARE WE LEARNING ABOUT THE CONFLICTS THAT RESULTED AFTER REPORTING SURROUNDING A SECOND STRIKE?

>> WELL, THE REPORTING THAT CAME OUT FROM CNN AND "THE WASHINGTON POST" LAST WEEK REALLY PLAYED INTO DEEPENING CONCERNS ABOUT THE LEGALITY OF EVERYTHING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING IN THE CARIBBEAN AND AROUND VENEZUELA.

WHAT THAT REPORTING SAID WAS THAT PETE HEGSETH, THE DEFENSE SECRETARY, ORDERED THE FIRST STRIKE ON THIS BOAT ON SEPTEMBER 2nd.

IT WASN'T CLEAR WHETHER HE HAD ORDERED THIS FOLLOW-UP STRIKE SUPPOSEDLY TO KILL TWO CREW MEMBERS WHO WERE STILL ALIVE AFTER THE FIRST STRIKE.

THE REASON THAT IS VERY CONCERNING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE ON CAPITOL HILL AS YOU SAY, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS, IS THAT SECOND STRIKE WOULD BE AN INFRINGEMENT OF THE LAWS OF WAR AND INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AS THE PRESIDENT SAID, HE IS UNDER THE CARPET SAYING HE BELIEVES HEGSETH WHEN HE SAID THAT HE DIDN'T ORDER THE SECOND STRIKE, BUT THAT ALSO RAISES HUGE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.

WHO IS IN CONTROL OF THIS AND WHO ELSE MIGHT HAVE ORDERED THAT STRIKE?

ALL OF THIS INFORMATION SHOULD BE POSSIBLE FOR CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES TO GET.

AS YOU SEE THERE, THERE IS A LOT OF VIDEO EVIDENCE TO START WITH AND I THINK THIS PLAYS INTO THE WIDER QUESTION OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.

THE JUSTIFICATION LEGALLY FOR THE STRIKES ON THESE SPEED BOATS IN AND AMONG THEMSELVES IS VERY PROBLEMATIC.

THE JUSTIFICATION ACCORDING TO THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS STILL CLASSIFIED.

SO THE ADMINISTRATION HASN'T FULLY EXPLAINED WHAT IT IS.

WHAT THEY SEEM TO BE ARGUING IS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE AND THE DEFENSE OF ITS ALLIES AGAINST WHAT IT SAYS ARE CARTEL BOATS IMPORTING NARCO-TERRORISM INTO THE UNITED STATES.

ALL SORTS OF POLITICAL LEADERS AND LEGAL GROUPS AND CONSTITUTIONAL GROUPS SAY THAT IS A VERY PROBLEMATIC INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IS GOING ON AND THAT IN THEMSELVES THESE STRIKES WHICH DO NOT ALLOW THE ALLEGED DRUG TRAFFICKERS DUE PROCESS AND IN MANY CASES THE U.S.

DOESN'T EVEN KNOW INDIVIDUALLY WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE COULD WELL BE ILLEGAL.

I THINK THIS HAS BEEN BUILDING OVER A COUPLE MONTHS, BUT NOW THIS PARTICULAR STRIKE ON SEPTEMBER THE 2nd HAS REALLY DEEPENED A LOT OF THESE PROFOUND QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ADMINISTRATION'S CONDUCT.

THAT'S BEFORE WE GET TO ANY POTENTIAL MILITARY ACTION AGAINST VENEZUELA ITSELF.

>> YEAH.

AND THE LEGALITY OVER THAT SEPTEMBER 2nd STRIKE, THE QUESTIONS SURROUNDING IT ARE RAISED EVEN HIGHER GIVEN THAT THE SUBSEQUENT STRIKES WE KNOW, THERE WAS NOT AT LEAST AS FAR ALLEGATIONS OF A DOUBLE-TAP STRIKE, A SECOND STRIKE.

IN FACT, SURVIVORS OF SUBSEQUENT STRIKES WERE ACTUALLY REPATRIATED BACK TO THEIR COUNTRIES AND THAT RAISES A QUESTION WHETHER LEGAL ADVISERS IN THE DOJ MAY HAVE STEPPED IN FOLLOWING NEWS AND REPORTING AND ALLEGATIONS SURROUNDING WHAT TOOK PLACE ON SEPTEMBER 2nd.

QUICKLY, STEPHEN, THIS ALL LEADS TO THE BIGGER QUESTION OF WHAT ARE THE PRESIDENT'S PLANS WITH REGARDS TO VENEZUELA AND NICOLAS MADURO'S REGIME.

THE PRESIDENT WILL BE HOLDING A CABINET MEETING, I BELIEVE, TONIGHT ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT?

>> WELL, IT APPEARS THE GOAL OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S MILITARY BUILD-UP AND SANCTIONS AND OTHER PRESSURE ON VENEZUELA, THE PRESIDENT'S THREATS, HAS BEEN TO TRY TO CONVINCE PRESIDENT MADURO EITHER TO LEAVE OFFICE OF HIS OWN ACCORD AND GO INTO ASYLUM, PERHAPS IN RUSSIA OR TURKEY OR SOMEWHERE OR FOR GENERALS AROUND HIM TO TOPPLE HIM.

THAT SO FAR HASN'T HAPPENED INTENSE IN VENEZUELA.

THAT LEAVES THE QUESTION OF WHAT WILL THE ADMINISTRATION DO?

THE PRESIDENT SAID OVER THANKSGIVING LAST WEEK THAT STRIKES AGAINST SUPPOSED CARTEL TARGETS ON LAND WOULD BEGIN VERY SOON.

AFTER AMASSING THIS ARMADA OF U.S.

SHIPS OFF VENEZUELA, THE PRESIDENT IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT BOX.

IF HE LEAVES WITHOUT TOPPLING MADURO, THERE WILL BE GREAT QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS CREDIBILITY AND STRATEGY AND STARTING A NEW WAR IN VENEZUELA EFFECTIVELY WOULD BE A GREAT POLITICAL RISK AT A TIME OF DOMESTIC TROUBLES FOR THE PRESIDENT AND IS NOT SOMETHING NECESSARILY THAT IS SUPPORTED BY HIS BASE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH.

WE'RE SEEING FRACTURES WITHIN HIS OWN BASE AROUND SOME OF HIS FOREIGN AFFAIRS POLICIES, SPECIFICALLY NOW AS IT RELATES TO VENEZUELA.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AT THE SAME TIME AS MADURO'S REGIME IN THE NAME OF CRACKING DOWN ON NARCO- TRAFFICKERS, TRUMP HAS ANNOUNCED PLANS TO PARDON A FORMER HONDURAN PRESIDENT, JUAN ORLANDO HERNANDEZ, CONVICTED LAST YEAR OF CONSPIRING TO BRING COCAINE INTO THE U.S.

BRIAN WINTER IS EDITOR IN CHIEF OF AMERICAS QUARTERLY AND GUEST WRITER FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE'LL GET TO THE HONDURAS AND THE PRESIDENT'S INTEREST IN PICKING THE WINNER IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IS NOTABLE.

LET'S START WITH VENEZUELA, THOUGH, BECAUSE AS WE'VE NOTED, THE PRESIDENT CALLED MADURO AN ILLEGITIMATE LEADER, A NARCO- TERRORIST.

I THINK THERE ARE MANY WORLD LEADERS WHO WOULD LIKELY AGREE, BUT THE U.S.

HAS NOW DISPATCHED THE LARGEST NAVAL TASK FORCE TO THE REGION, I BELIEVE, SINCE THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.

IN ADDITION TO F-35 FIGHTER JETS, THE PRESIDENT POSTED OVER THE THANKSGIVING DAYBREAK OVER THE WEEKEND THE AIRSPACE WILL BE CLOSED AS WELL.

IS THE U.S.

IN YOUR VIEW PLANNING FOR SOME SORT OF MILITARY INVOLVEMENT IN VENEZUELA?

>> IT'S TOUGH TO SAY.

WHAT'S CLEAR IS THAT THEY'RE DOING ALL OF THIS.

THE UNITED STATES IS MARSHALING ALL OF THESE FORCES, THE BIGGEST PRESENCE IN THE SOUTHERN CARIBBEAN IN DECADES, IN AN EFFORT TO GET NICOLAS MADURO, THE DICTATOR OF VENEZUELA, TO LEAVE, PREFERABLY OF HIS OWN ACCORD, BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW SEEMS TO AMOUNT TO A GIANT GAME OF CHICKEN WHERE MADURO IS TRYING TO HOLD OUT, TRYING TO PERHAPS LENGTHEN THIS CONFRONTATION EVEN FURTHER BY PROPOSING NEGOTIATIONS, PROBABLY OR CERTAINLY AWARE OF THE DIVISIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP FACES EVEN WITHIN HIS OWN BASE ON WHAT KIND OF ACTION THE UNITED STATES SHOULD PURSUE IN VENEZUELA AND MEANWHILE YOU HAVE PRESIDENT TRUMP CONTINUING PRESSURE, POSSIBLY IN THE HOPE THAT THIS SITUATION WILL RESOLVE ITSELF WITHOUT ANY SHOTS ACTUALLY BEING FIRED WITHIN VENEZUELAN TERRITORY.

THAT WOULD CLEARLY BE THE ENDING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PREFERS.

>> AND WE KNOW THAT HUGO CHAVEZ, MADURO'S PREDECESSOR, HAD BEEN THE DOMINANT FORCE IN THE COUNTRY AND MADURO WAS SEEN PERHAPS AS A PLACE HOLDER AND NOT MANY WOULD HAVE EXPECTED HIM TO LAST AS LONG AS HE HAS AND YET HE'S STILL THERE.

POLITICAL OVERTHROWS, MILITARY COUPS ARE MUCH EASIER TO DOCUMENT AND LAY OUT ON PAPER THAN THEY ARE ACTUALLY TO PERFORM IN REAL LIFE AND WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THE FALLOUT FROM THAT AS WELL.

CAN YOU JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PRESIDENT RISKS AT THIS POINT BECAUSE THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" IN THEIR EDITORIAL BOARD OVER THE WEEKEND REALLY RAISED THE STAKES WITH THIS OP ED AND THEY SAID PRESIDENT TRUMP IS IN A HIGH STAKES SHOWDOWN WITH VENEZUELA'S NICOLAS MADURO AND THE DICTATOR'S BACKERS IN HAVANA ONE OF THE TWO PRESIDENTS IS GOING TO LOSE AND IT WILL BE MR.

TRUMP IF MR.

MADURO ISN'T OUSTED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

HAS THE PRESIDENT PUT HIS OWN CREDIBILITY ON THE LINE HERE WITH THIS PARTICULAR FOREIGN POLICY ENTANGLEMENT?

>> WELL, YOU MENTION HOW LONG NICOLAS MADURO HAS BEEN AROUND.

HE'S BEEN AROUND SINCE 2013.

HE LOST AN ELECTION LAST YEAR BADLY AND YET HE'S STILL HERE, AND IF YOU LOOK AT CUBA, WHICH IS REALLY THE MODEL THAT VENEZUELA'S DICTATORSHIP HAS IN MIND, THAT'S A REGIME THAT HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR 65 YEARS AND COUNTING.

AND THE POINT HERE IS THAT ONCE DICTATORSHIPS BECOME INSTALLED, THEY'RE VERY HARD TO GET RID OF.

EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE BIGGEST MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD, AS THE UNITED STATES DOES, AND, YOU KNOW, THESE KINDS OF REGIMES HAVE BEEN TROUBLE AND POSED THORNY CHALLENGES FOR AMERICAN PRESIDENTS OF BOTH PARTIES, INCLUDING HAWKISH REPUBLICANS.

FEW PEOPLE REMEMBER THIS NOW, BUT BACK IN THE 1980s THE CUBAN DEGREES DIASPORATE WAS HARD BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT WAS TOUGH ENOUGH.

HERE THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO SEE MILITARY ACTION IN ORDER TO GET MADURO OUT AND WARNS HIM OF A LOSS OF CREDIBILITY IF HE FAILS TO DO, SO BUT YOU ALSO HAVE A PART OF THE PRESIDENT'S BASE THAT STERNLY CERTAINLY HAS FRESH MEMORIES OF THE TWO "FOREVER" WARS, SOME VETERANS OF THOSE TWO WARS LIKE J.D.

VANCE AND THINKING HERE WE GO AGAIN, ANOTHER REGIME CHANGE- TYPE OPERATION THE UNITED STATES IS BEING PULLED INTO AND THEY'RE VERY WARY OF IT, NOT AN EASY SITUATION FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> IF MADURO DOES LEAVE BY FORCE OR OTHERWISE, THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO THE COUNTRY?

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT JUST FROM THEIR ELECTIONS MOST RECENTLY, THE MAJORITY OF VENEZUELANS DO NOT SUPPORT NICOLAS MADURO.

THEY DO NOT VIEW THAT HE IS THE LEGITIMATE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY.

SO IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY PERHAPS FOR THE COUNTRY?

>> OH, THERE'S DEFINITELY AN OPPORTUNITY AND LOOK, AT LEAST 80% OF VENEZUELANS WANT TO SEE NICOLAS MADURO GONE.

WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE OF THE BALLOTS WHOSE RESULTS WERE LEAKED, THE REAL RESULTS WHICH WERE LEAKED TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY LAST YEAR AND LOOK, BOTH PARTIES IN WASHINGTON FOR THE MOST PART WANT TO SEE NICOLAS MADURO GONE AND DEMOCRACY RETURN TO VENEZUELA.

THE QUESTION HERE IS WHAT KIND OF EFFORT AND SACRIFICE ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES ARE PEOPLE WILLING TO ENDURE IN ORDER TO SEE THAT HAPPEN?

IF NICOLAS MADURO IS PREVAILED UPON TO LEAVE OR IF HE LEAVES OF HIS OWN ACCORD, THERE IS REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THE OPPOSITION, THE RECENT WINNER OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, THAT SHE AND HER GROUP OF PEOPLE WOULD BE PREPARED TO TAKE POWER.

THEY HAVE AN ECONOMIC PLAN THAT THEY'VE PUT TOGETHER.

THEY HAVE CONSIDERABLE SUPPORT FROM THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE, AS I STATED.

I THINK THAT SOME OF THESE WORRIES ABOUT AN IRAQ-STYLE QUAGMIRE AFTER THE ATTACK, THERE'S SOMETHING TO THOSE WORRIES, BUT THEY MAY BE OVERBLOWN OF VENEZUELA IS NOT IRAQ AND YOU WOULD ALSO HOPE THE U.S.

MILITARY WOULD LEARN AT LEAST SOME OF THE LESSONS IN THE VENEZUELAN OFFICER CORPS INVOLVED, GIVE THEM A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND NOT RUN INTO SOME OF THOSE MISTAKES THAT WASHINGTON DID 20 YEARS AGO.

>> YEAH.

WITH THE BAATH PARTY AND GIVE THEM SOME CLEMENCY PERHAPS.

I DID BRING UP HONDURAS IN THE INTRODUCTION THERE AND THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER AT THE VERY LEAST THERE'S A DOUBLE STANDARD HERE IN THE PRESIDENT DESIGNATING NICOLAS MADURO A NARCO-TERRORIST AND NOW PLEDGING TO PARDON FORMER HONDURAN PRESIDENT WHO THE U.S.

PROSECUTORS CONVICTED OF TURNING HONDURAS INTO A NARCO STATE.

FROM A CREDIBILITY STANDPOINT, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE UNITED STATES BOTH IN THE REGION AND DOES IT NOT CUT INTO U.S.

MORAL AUTHORITY IN WHATEVER ENDS UP HAPPENING IN THIS VENEZUELAN OPERATION?

>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU THAT SO FAR TODAY I HAVE NOT EVEN HEARD ANY REPUBLICANS DEFEND PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SAYING THAT HE WILL CONCEDE THAT PARDON TO FORMER PRESIDENT JUAN ORLANDO HERNANDEZ WHO WAS FOUND GUILTY IN A U.S.

COURT OF TAKING BRIBES IN RETURN FOR ALLOWING DRUGS TO PASS THROUGH HIS COUNTRY ON THEIR WAY TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE DISSONANCE, TO USE A VERY POLITE WORD, I THINK IS VERY CLEAR.

I UNDERSTAND PRESIDENT TRUMP, YOU KNOW, HE SAYS THAT WELL, THIS WAS A CASE OF A PRESIDENT BEING PERSECUTED, AS HE BELIEVES HE WAS.

THAT MAY EXPLAIN AT LEAST PART OF THE DECISION MAKING HERE, BUT THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT MANY BOTH INSIDE THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AS STERNLY WITHIN LATIN AMERICA HAVE PICKED UP ON WHAT THEY SEE AS A DOUBLE STANDARD.

>> THERE IS A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE IN THAT TRIAL AND HE WAS CONVICTED BY A U.S.

JURY AS WELL.

BRIAN WINTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>>> NOW TO A FLURRY OF DIPLOMACY AIMED AT ENDING THE WAR WITH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO CALLED THE NEGOTIATIONS ACKNOWLEDGING THAT A LOT OF WORK REMAINED.

WITKOFF'S TRIP COMES DAYS AFTER A TRANSCRIPT WAS LEAKED APPEARING TO SHOW HIM COACHING THE KREMLIN ON HOW TO HANDLE PRESIDENT TRUMP.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO VETERAN DIPLOMAT AND FORMER U.S.

SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY SHORTLY AFTER THE LEAK ABOUT WHAT HE MAKES OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S UNCONVENTIONAL APPROACH.

.

>> THIS WEEK HAS BEEN REALLY DOMINATED ON WHAT ON EARTH IS THE U.S.

DOING TRYING TO GET PEACE IN UKRAINE LINKED HEAVILY TOWARDS LEAKS TOWARDS RUSSIA.

THE PRESIDENT SAYS THIS IS NOTHING BUT NORMAL STATES CRAFT.

I WANT TO ASK A STATESMAN WHO IS ENGAGED IN HIGH STAKES NEGOTIATIONS, IS IT?

IS IT NORMAL?

>> I WOULD SAY THIS HAS PROVEN TO BE FAIRLY NORMAL FOR HOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CHOOSES TO DO ITS DIPLOMACY.

I THINK JUST PLUNKING SOMETHING DOWN AND GIVING SOMEBODY SORT DECIDE THIS BY THURSDAY, NOT A GREAT WAY TO BEGIN.

I HOPE THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL, GENUINELY, HUGELY HOPE THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL.

THIS WAR MUST END, BUT PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS A SET OF VERY CLEAR OBJECTIVES AND NEEDLESS TO SAY, IN ANY KIND OF TREATY OR END OF WAR, BOTH SIDES WILL NOT GET EVERYTHING AND YOU HAVE TO FIND THE SWEET SPOT OF WHERE YOU CAN LAND SO THAT THEY'RE SATISFIED SIGNIFICANTLY ENOUGH SO THEIR PEOPLE, THEIR COUNTRIES, WILL NOT REBEL OR FEEL THEY SOMEHOW GAVE AWAY THE STORE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS GETTING OUT OF THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY CAN EXPLAIN PRECISELY WHY THERE APPEARS TO BE THIS EXCESSIVE SENSITIVITY TO PRESIDENT PUTIN AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL THAT THE ABSENCE OF SOME OF THE SANCTIONS WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE, THE ABSENCE OF SOME OF THE GREATER PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS CHANGED WHAT YOU CAN PUT ON THE TABLE AND THEN NEGOTIATE ABOUT.

OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE HUGE IMPLICATIONS HERE FOR EUROPE, ALSO.

RUSSIA CONTINUES TO PROMULGATE THESE EPISODES OF INVADING AIRSPACE WITH DRONES AND TESTING AND, YOU KNOW, BACK AND FORTH, PLAYING A DANGEROUS GAME AND EUROPE IS CONCERNED, AS IT SHOULD BE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT THE KIND OF PRESSURE, SANCTIONS, ET CETERA, THAT SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO BEAR ON PUTIN TO MAKE HIM FEEL THE NEED TO COME TO NEGOTIATION.

I HAVE RECENTLY BEEN SPEAKING TO THE FORMER NATO SECRETARY GENERAL WHO WAS SECRETARY GENERAL IN 2014 WHEN YOU WERE IN OFFICE.

HE'S WRITTEN A MEMOIR AND HE'S VERY CLEAR THAT HE REGRETS THAT THE UNITED STATES, EUROPE, ET CETERA DIDN'T PUT ENOUGH PRESSURE, WHETHER IT WAS SANCTIONS OR MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE, ON PUTIN AFTER THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA AND THE FIRST INVASION OF THE LITTLE GREEN MEN INTO EASTERN UKRAINE.

DO YOU ACCEPT THAT IN RETROSPECT, THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE MUCH MORE THEN?

>> I THINK IT IS SO EASY TO SIT HERE AND SEE A SITUATION WHERE A NUMBER OF YEARS LATER SOMETHING HAPPENS AND YOU SAY OH, GOSH, WHY DIDN'T WE DO THIS OR THAT THEN?

I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY, AS DOES PRESIDENT OBAMA AND EVERYBODY IN THAT ADMINISTRATION, THAT THERE WAS AN INITIAL STAGE WHERE ALREADY WHAT HAD BEEN HAPPENING IN HAPPENING HAD BEEN EXACERBATED AND THESE LITTLE GREEN MEN WERE RUNNING AROUND IN UNIFORMS.

>> OTHERWISE KNOWN AS RUSSIAN TROOPS.

>> BUT BECAUSE OF THE VERY DIFFERENT HISTORY WITH CRIMEA AND AT THAT POINT ONLY A BEGINNING OF THIS PROCESS OF UNDERSTANDING PUTIN'S FULL AMBITIONS, SANCTIONS WERE IMMEDIATELY PUT IN PLACE.

I THINK AS THE INITIAL EVALUATION OF THIS NEW TACTIC WAS BEING DONE, THERE WAS SOME CONSIDERATION TO HOW DO YOU PUT PRESSURE, BUT NOT START WORLD WAR III.

>> RIGHT.

THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY'S SAYING, INCLUDING BIDEN AND TRUMP AND EVERYBODY.

>> TO BE FAIR, IT'S VERY REAL.

NOW THAT SAID, EVERYBODY NOW UNDERSTANDS EXACTLY WHAT THE GAME PLAN IS.

EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THE DANGER OF THAT GAME PLAN.

I THINK ONE HAS TO BE TOUGHER.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR.

HE THINKS HE'S GOING TO WIN.

HE THINKS HE IS WINNING AND THAT EQUATION HAS TO BE CHANGED IF YOU'RE GOING TO GET THE FULL MEASURE OF WHAT YOU WANT.

THAT'S WHY I THINK MEMBERS OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE, REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT, ARE INCREASINGLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION THIS MAY BE TAKING.

YOU KNOW, THE OLD SAYING PEACE AT ANY COST, NO AND YOU HAVE TO BE CERTAIN THAT THE LONG TERM CAN BE HELD ONTO MAY TAKE A LITTLE LONGER AND MAY TAKE A LITTLE MORE PAIN.

>> NOW YOU'VE GOT THE PENTAGON INVESTIGATING SENATOR MARK KELLY OVER "SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS" OF MISCONDUCT AFTER HE ALSO SAID IN THE VIDEO THAT AMERICAN TROOPS CAN REFUSE ILLEGAL ORDERS.

SO I'M ASKING YOU, NOT AS FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, BUT AS AMERICA'S MOST FAMOUS VIETNAM VET WHO, YOU KNOW, KNOWN FOR HAVING EXPLAINED TO THE CONGRESS AND EVERYBODY WHY THEIR WAR IN VIETNAM WAS GOING WRONG WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE LIKE MARK KELLY AND THE OTHERS OR EVEN TO THE PENTAGON?

>> I THINK THIS SINGLING OUT OF PEOPLE AND SUGGESTING YOU'RE GOING TO BRING THEM BACK AND PUT THEM INTO SERVICE AGAIN FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF THEN TRYING THEM OR COURT-MARTIALING THEM, I THINK IT'S UNAMERICAN.

I THINK IT IS NOT IN KEEPING WITH THE SPIRIT WITH WHICH AMERICAN CITIZENS JOIN THE MILITARY AND GO IN AND SERVE THEIR COUNTRY AND SUCH A DISTINGUISHED CAREER FROM SO MANY OF THESE FOLKS AND THEN YOU TURN AROUND AND START THREATENING THEM WITH COURT- MARTIAL AND WITH DEATH FOR SEDITION THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST --IT'S REALLY HARD TO WATCH AND IT'S VERY SAD FOR OUR COUNTRY AND I THINK FOR THE MILITARY TO HAVE THIS KIND OF DISSENSION IN LEADERSHIP AND IT'S QUITE EXTRAORDINARY TO HAVE A SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WHOSE SERVICE IS NOT THAT LONG AND STRONG.

>> MAJOR HEGSETH, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT NOT HAVING SOMEBODY THERE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE FAT AND YOU'RE ADDRESSING PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUGHT FOR THEIR COUNTRY WHO HAVE SERVED UNBELIEVABLY HIGH QUALIFIED SERVICE WITH FOUR STARS ON THEIR SHOULDERS.

DISTURBING ABOUT THAT AND MY HOPE IS THAT THAT WILL STOP OR MAYBE THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF WILL STEP IN AND SET AN EXAMPLE.

>> SECRETARY KERRY, THANK YOU.

>> APPRECIATE IT.

>>> NEXT WE TURN TO RIKERS ISLAND, THE NEW YORK JAIL FAMOUS FOR ITS VIOLENCE LONG SEEN AS A FAILING CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

NOW A NEW DOCUMENTARY IS SHARING A RADICAL NEW APPROACH BEING TAKEN AT THE PRISON AND THE EXTRAORDINARY MAN BEHIND IT.

>> RIKERS ISLAND, THERE'S A LOT OF PAIN BEHIND THESE WALLS.

YOUNG KIDS 18 TO 21.

>> THESE KIDS WERE GETTING CUT, STABBED, AT A VERY HIGH RATE.

>> IT WAS JUST PURE ANARCHY.

>> FATHERLESS NO MORE TELLS THE FORMER NFL SUPER BOWL CHAMPION, WHO MOVED TO RIKERS TO WORK WITH THE YOUNG MEN INCARCERATED THERE AND PASTOR JOHNSON JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

PASTOR JOHNSON, TIM, IF I CAN CALL YOU THAT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING, THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THAT WE HOPE SO MANY OF OUR VIEWERS WILL HAVE THE CHANCE TO SEE IN THIS INCREDIBLY IMPACTFUL FILM.

JUST TO TELL OUR VIEWERS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR BACKSTORY, YOU TRADED A COMFORTABLE LIFE AND A SUCCESSFUL MINISTRY IN FLORIDA FOR AN RV PARKED IN THE LAW OF RIKERS ISLAND, A PLACE OFTEN DESCRIBED AS HELL ON EARTH.

TAKE US BACK TO THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU HEARD THE CALLING BECAUSE I BELIEVE YOU DESCRIBE IT AS A SPIRITUAL INVITATION, HEARING THE WORDS RIKERS ISLAND IN A PRAYER.

>> YES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE PLEASURE OF BEING ABLE TO CONTINUE TO TELL THIS STORY.

IT WAS MARCH 12th, 2022.

I WAS IN PRAYER, LIKE I HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS, AND I PRAYED A PRAYER THAT I DIDN'T EXPECT A WHOLE LOT FROM, BUT WAS SHOCKED BY THE ANSWER AND THE PRAYER WAS FATHER, WOULD YOU SHOW ME THE SECRETS OF YOUR HEART AND AFTER A PAUSE I HEARD THE WORDS RIKERS ISLAND.

I HAD NEVER AT THAT TIME --I WAS 57 --SAID THOSE TWO WORDS OUT OF MY MOUTH.

I WAS AWARE OF RIKERS ISLAND.

I HAD A SENSE THAT IT WAS SOME PROBLEMS WITH IT BUT DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT AND READ AN ARTICLE AND DIDN'T GET THROUGH THE WHOLE ARTICLE BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH DEVASTATION THAT I HAD READ ABOUT THAT WAS HAPPENING THERE, THE VIOLENCE LEVEL AND THE CONTROVERSY AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON MY LIFE HAS NOT BEEN THE SAME.

>> AND YOU TOOK THAT PRAYER AND FOLLOWED UP ON IT AND PHYSICALLY WENT TO RIKERS ISLAND TO MEET THE YOUNG WHO WERE JAILED THERE.

TALK ABOUT THOSE FIRST FEW DAYS AND THE MEN THAT YOU FIRST MET.

>> IT WAS KIND OF FUNNY BECAUSE WE WALK IN THE ROOM, MYSELF AND A FORMER TEAMMATE OF MINE, ART MUNK MONK, WE GO IN AND THEY SAID THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS WERE NEVER TO BE IN THE SAME ROOM TOGETHER.

OFFICER WHITE AND OFFICER CUMMINGS HAD STARTED A BASKETBALL LEAGUE TO BRING TOGETHER OPPOSING GANG MEMBERS IN THE INTEREST OF BASKETBALL AND LOVE OF THE GAME TO PROVIDE SOME CIVILITY, BUT THERE WAS NO FOLLOW-UP AFTER THAT.

SO THROUGH THE WARDEN'S DIRECTION AND THE COMMISSIONER'S DIRECTION THEY ENDED UP IN A ROOM WITH US AND WHEN WE COME IN THERE, THE GUYS ALL CAME IN THE ROOM AND THEY WERE LIKE THIS.

THEY WERE LOOKING AT US LIKE LEAVING?

BECAUSE I THINK THEY WERE USED TO THE PROGRAM IDEA THAT YOU COME IN.

YOU OFFER A SERVICE, BUT THERE'S NO REAL RELATIONSHIP.

WHEN I SHARED THE STORY OF HOW I GOT THERE AND THAT WHETHER THEY WANTED TO STAY OR NOT, I WAS NOT GOING ANYWHERE, IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS IT BEGAN TO TURN SLOWLY TO WHEN YOU COMING BACK?

>> AND THOSE MEN YOU CAN SEE THAT THEY BUILT A WALL.

THEY WERE NOT READY OR EXPECTING TO LET YOU IN AND YET THEY DID AND YOU HAVE BEEN A ROLE MODEL AND A GUARDIAN FOR THEM FOR SO MANY YEARS SINCE.

MANY OF THESE MEN IN THE DOCUMENTARY ARE VERY YOUNG.

I WAS WATCHING THIS FILM WITH MY HUSBAND AND WE REALIZED MY STEPCHILDREN ARE OLDER THAN THESE MEN AND THEY WERE PUT IN A LIFE OF CRIME BEFORE THEY EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO CARVE OUT THEIR OWN LIFE'S PATH.

THERE'S A MOVING SCENE IN THE FILM THAT I'D LIKE TO PLAY FOR OUR VIEWERS ABOUT JUST WHO THESE MEN ARE.

>> NOBODY NEVER PUT ANY HANDS ON MY FACE, TOLD ME THEY LOVED ME.

I DIDN'T HAVE A FATHER, MY REAL FATHER.

I FEEL LOVED.

>> UNCLE SAYING I'M EXTREMELY VIOLENT.

I'M TRYING TO SHOW HIM DIFFERENT.

>> THERE'S A POWERFUL THEME IN THE FILM, ALSO, ABOUT THESE MEN BEING SEEN.

I BELIEVE THERE ARE NO PHYSICAL MIRRORS IN THE PRISON AND FOR THE FIRST TIME THROUGH YOUR EYES THESE MEN FELT SEEN.

JUST TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMANIZING THESE PRISONERS.

>> I THINK WE WERE CREATED AS HUMANS FIRST BEFORE WE WERE ANYTHING ELSE, BEFORE WE WERE VIOLENT, BEFORE WE WERE OF SOME RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, BEFORE WE HAD ANY CLAIM ON WHAT OUR NAME WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.

WE WERE CREATED IN AN IMAGE OF GOD AND GOD IS LOVE AND HE CREATED US IN HIS IMAGE TO EXPRESS TO US HIS LOVE, NOT A BUNCH OF HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH, NOT A BUNCH OF CONDITIONS TO MEET.

IT WAS THAT WE WOULD KNOW HIS LOVE AND THEN BE EXPRESSIONS OF HIS LOVE IN THE WORLD AND WHAT I BELIEVED WAS TRUE, THAT ALL THESE YOUNG MEN WANT IS THE SAME THINGS WE ALL WANT.

WE WANT TO BE SEEN.

WE WANT TO BE RESPECTED AND WE WANTED TO BE TREATED AS HUMAN BECAUSE I BELIEVE IF THEY DIDN'T TRUST THAT I SAW THEM AS HUMANS AND THAT THEY HAD A PLACE TO BELONG, WHAT I BELIEVE AND THEIR BEHAVIOR WOULD NEVER BE AFFECTED.

>> SO MANY OF THESE MEN SHARE, SADLY, THE COMMON LINK OF NOT HAVING A FATHER OR HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR FATHER.

MANY OF THEIR FATHERS SERVED TIME IN PRISON AS WELL.

SO THIS WAS A VICIOUS CYCLE THAT WAS CONTINUING IN THEIR FAMILIES AND YOU RELATED TO THESE MEN IN A SIMILAR CONTEXT, THAT YOU, DESPITE YOUR SUPER BOWL FAME, YOUR CELEBRITY AND SUCCESS BOTH PROFESSIONALLY AND THEN AFTER YOUR TIME IN THE NFL AS A PASTOR, YOU HAVE CHILDREN OF YOUR OWN, YOU'RE HAPPILY MARRIED, BUT YOU ALSO WERE FATHERLESS AND THAT LEFT A HOLE IN YOUR HEART.

JUST TALK ABOUT THAT CONNECTION THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO ESTABLISH BETWEEN YOURSELF AND THESE MEN.

>> ONE THING I KNOW IS IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU BELONG TO, YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE.

SO WE MAKE UP LIFE BASED ON OUR GIFTS AND OUR TALENTS AND WHATEVER WE WANT TO MAKE OF IT, BUT WE WERE MADE FOR SOMETHING PRETTY BEAUTIFUL AND WONDERFUL IN THE EYES OF OUR CREATOR WHO IS GOD, THE HEAVENLY FATHER.

AND SO I WAS BORN JANUARY 29th, 1965, AND ON EVERY BIRTH CERTIFICATE THERE IS TWO PLACES THAT ALLOW YOU TO SEE WHERE THE PERSON'S NAMES ARE THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU COMING INTO THIS WORLD.

IN THE PLACE WHERE IT SAYS MOTHER, MY MOM'S NAME IS IN PLACE AND THE PLACE WHERE IT SAYS FATHER, IT'S EMPTY.

SO WHEN I WENT TO RIKERS, I WASN'T JUST COMMUNICATING A BIBLE STORY EVEN THOUGH THERE IS PRIMITIVE EVIDENCE OF THIS NEED WE HAVE FOR GOD, THE FATHER.

I WAS TELLING THEM MY STORY AS WELL, BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WALK AROUND WITH A HOLE IN THE SOUL IN THE SHAPE OF YOUR DAD WANTING SOMEBODY TO WANT YOU AND WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR WAS A FATHER'S LOVE IN THE MIDST OF SELF-MEDICATING AND DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT I WAS DOING TO CREATE MY OWN LIFE.

I WANTED TO BE LOVED AND I FOUND OUT THE LOVE OF THE FATHER WAS LOOKING FOR ME WHEN I WAS AT PENN STATE UNIVERSITY AND WHEN HE FOUND ME IN CHRIST JESUS, THE HOLE WAS NOT ONLY HEALED, BUT HIS SPIRIT LIVING IN AND THROUGH ME HAD ENOUGH OVERFLOW TO OFFER TO THESE YOUNG MEN.

>> THIS MOVIE DOESN'T HAVE THE HAPPY ENDING IN THAT ALL OF THESE MEN ARE NOW OUT AND LIVING THEIR LIVES AS FREE MEN.

THEY WERE CHARGED WITH SERIOUS CRIMES.

THEY ARE PAYING THE PRICE OF THAT, MANY OF THEM SENTENCED TO 20-PLUS YEARS IN PRISON.

YOU'VE PROVEN, THOUGH, THAT THIS MODEL TO CHANGE THEM AS THEY ARE SERVING THEIR TIMES WORKS.

HOW DO YOU SCALE THAT?

I GUESS THAT'S MY FINAL QUESTION TO YOU, BECAUSE THAT MUST BE THE BIGGEST REWARD TO YOU.

>> IT IS AND I THINK THE CONDITION THAT THESE YOUNG MEN ARE IN ARE THAT THEY LIVE BEHIND BARS.

YOU CAN SEE, BUT MOST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD LIVE BEHIND BARS YOU CANNOT SEE AND SO THEY'RE IMPRISONED IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND THE GOAL IS NOT JUST TO FIGHT PAST THE BARS.

IT'S TO FIND OUT WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE FREE AND THE FREEDOM I SEE AND HEAR IN THE LIVES OF THESE YOUNG MEN THAT ARE AFFECTING THEIR FAMILIES, THAT ARE AFFECTING THEIR FRIENDS, THAT ARE AFFECTING THEIR COMMUNITIES, BECAUSE LIVING IN THE FREEDOM OF KNOWING A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE HEAVENLY FATHER IS NOT ONLY REAL, BUT IT'S WHAT I WAS BORN FOR, ALLOWS YOU TO HAVE AN IMPACT THAT LEADS TO A LIFE OF FLOURISHING.

SO THE GUYS THAT ARE IN PRISON, THEY'RE FLOURISHING.

IT SOUNDS KIND OF CONTRADICTORY, BUT THEY'RE FLOURISHING IN THEIR SOULS IN PRISON WHILE THERE'S PLENTY OF INDIVIDUALS I KNOW WHO ARE STILL IN BONDAGE OUTSIDE.

>> AND THAT IS VISIBLE THROUGH HOW THESE MEN HAVE TRANSFORMED EVEN IN THIS DOCUMENTARY IN THE HOUR AND A HALF PLUS.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND EVERYBODY WATCH IT.

IT IS VERY MOVING.

TIM JOHNSON, THE FILM IS UNDER CONSIDERATION FOR AN OSCAR WE SHOULD NOTE, REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE WORK THAT YOU CONTINUE TO DO.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NEXT, TO A CRISIS FACING PUBLIC EDUCATION IN AMERICA, STUDENTS' READING AND MATH SCORES ARE REACHING HISTORIC LOWS.

ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, THE CAUSE OF THIS DECLINE ISN'T AS OBVIOUS AS YOU'D THINK.

JOURNALIST ANDREW RICE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU OPENED YOUR PIECE WITH SOME OF THE LATEST FINDINGS FROM THE NATIONAL ASSESSMENT OF EDUCATIONAL PROGRESS.

THIS IS CONSIDERED KIND OF THE GOLD STANDARD FIGURING OUT HOW KIDS ARE DOING ACADEMICALLY AND THESE RESULTS SHOW --THESE WERE OVER THE PAST YEAR --AND IT SHOWED 40% OF FOURTH GRADERS AND A THIRD OF EIGHTH GRADERS SCORED BELOW BASIC IN READING AND THAT ON THE MOST RECENT 12th GRADE MATH ASSESSMENT ABOUT THREE-QUARTERS OF HIGH SCHOOL SENIORS COULD NOT CORRECTLY ADD THE COST OF SIX LUNCH ITEMS AND CALCULATE A 20% TIP.

I WAS JUST WONDERING SINCE YOU WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THIS?

>> I MEAN IT'S I THINK REALLY IT BEGAN WITH A PERSONAL QUESTION THAT I HAD, WHICH IS I HAVE A SON WHO IS IN EIGHTH GRADE.

HE'S 13 YEARS OLD.

HE SPENT THE PANDEMIC, ABOUT 18 MONTHS ALMOST DURING THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, IN AND OUT OF SCHOOL.

HIS EDUCATION WAS QUITE DISRUPTED DURING THAT TIME PERIOD.

SO AFTERWARDS I ALWAYS KIND OF WONDERED WHAT WOULD THE LONG TERM EDUCATIONAL CONSEQUENCES BE?

THERE WEREN'T A LOT OF PRECEDENCES FOR IT IN THE ACADEMIC LITERATURE.

SO I JUST KEPT READING THESE ARTICLES THAT DESCRIBED THESE REALLY SOBERING MAYBE EVEN CATASTROPHIC SOUNDING DECLINES IN EDUCATION OR IN EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT.

I DISCOVERED, IN FACT, THE STORY WAS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN I IMAGINED WHEN I STARTED OUT, THAT REALLY PEOPLE WERE STUDYING THESE DECLINES AND THEY ARE REALLY DRASTIC AND THEY DID REALLY ACCELERATE DURING THE PANDEMIC, BUT THEY BEGAN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND THEY'VE CONTINUED IN MANY CATEGORIES AFTER THE PANDEMIC WHICH MAKES IT OBVIOUS THAT THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE DEEPER GOING ON HERE.

>> ONE OF THE MOST ALARMING FINDINGS IN YOUR PIECE IS THE REVERSAL OF DECADES OF PROGRESS.

IN 2015, ACCORDING TO YOUR PIECE, FOURTH GRADERS PERFORMED A FULL GRADE LEVEL ABOVE THEIR COUNTERPARTS IN 2000, YET ALMOST A DECADE LATER THOSE STUDENTS WERE REGISTERING ALL- TIME LOWS IN READING IN HIGH SCHOOL.

SO WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE DIFFERENT THEORIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY, BUT THE BEST CLUE THAT WE HAVE IS TIMING.

THE DOWNTURN STARTED IN ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF THE LAST DECADE AND THEN THAT LEADS US BEING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE I THINK EDUCATIONAL SCHOLARS WHO I TALKED TO, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, LEADS THEM TO A COUPLE DIFFERENT POTENTIAL THEORIES.

ONE OF THEM, REAL OBVIOUS AND MAYBE IN TUNE OF ONE TO MOST PEOPLE OR MOST PARENTS OF A TEENAGER LIKE ME, IS SCREENS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST THINK WELL, THE iPAD WAS INVENTED OR INTRODUCED TO THE PUBLIC IN 2010 AND THOSE KIDS HIT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AROUND 2015 AND THAT'S WHEN TEST SCORES STARTED TO GO DOWN.

SO MAYBE THAT'S JUST THE SIMPLE ANSWER, BUT AS I NOTE IN THE STORY, THERE'S A LOT TO SUGGEST THAT THERE'S SOMETHING DEEPER GOING ON, SOMETHING ELSE ABOUT THE SYSTEM ITSELF BECAUSE THE DECLINES ARE NOT EVENLY DISTRIBUTED.

THEY ARE DISTRIBUTED UNEVENLY TO KIDS WHO ARE SCORING THE LOWEST.

SO THE KIDS WHO WERE SCORING THE LOWEST FOR A LONG TIME WERE MAKING UP GROUND AND GAINING GROUND AND ESSENTIALLY WITH THE ACADEMICS I TALKED TO, THINK OF IT AS A FAN.

FOR A LONG TIME THE FAN WAS GETTING CLOSER TOGETHER.

WHAT'S HAPPENED NOW IS THE FAN IS SPREADING BACK OUT AND ALL OF THESE GAPS, ESPECIALLY THE ACHIEVEMENT GAPS BETWEEN WHITE STUDENTS AND BLACK STUDENTS ESPECIALLY, HAVE STARTED TO WIDEN.

THE MATH ACHIEVEMENT GAP BETWEEN GENDER GAP, BETWEEN GIRLS AND BOYS, HAS STARTED TO WIDEN AGAIN.

ALL OF THESE SORT OF OLD, YOU KNOW, LONGSTANDING INEQUITIES HAVE REASSERTED THEMSELVES.

SO BECAUSE IT'S UNEVENLY DISTRIBUTED, WE HAVE TO START ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THE SCHOOLS ARE DOING AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING DIFFERENTLY AND THAT'S WHAT MY STORY REALLY TRIED TO GO DEEP INTO.

>> SOME OF THESE ANECDOTES THAT YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR PIECE ARE REALLY A BUMMER.

I MEAN JUST TELL ME A COUPLE OF STORIES THAT SOME OF THE EDUCATORS TOLD YOU ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING IN THE CLASSROOM.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I THOUGHT WAS SORT OF THE SCARIEST AS A PARENT IS THE TALKING WITH FOLKS ABOUT THE WAY THAT GRADING STANDARDS HAVE SLACKENED.

A LOT OF TEACHERS TOLD ME THAT THERE'S JUST BEEN A SOFTENING OF EXPECTATIONS AND THEY JUST DON'T EXPECT CHILDREN AT ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT LEVELS TO BE ABLE TO PERFORM IN THE SAME WAY THAT THEY USED TO AND THE REASON THAT'S SCARY TO ME AS A PARENT OF A TEENAGER IS THAT GRADES ARE ONE OF THE TWO OR THREE PIECES OF METRICS THAT YOU CAN USE WITH AN OUTSIDER TO TRY TO GAUGE HOW YOUR CHILD IS DOING.

TEST SCORES ARE ANOTHER, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I HEARD WAS THIS PHENOMENON OF WHAT THEY CALL DEFLATION WHICH IS BASICALLY KIDS ARE JUST GETTING Bs FOR DOING LESS WORK THAN SIMILARLY, JUST HEAR STORIES ABOUT TEACHERS WHO SAY THAT THEY CAN'T ASK CHILDREN TO READ BOOKS ON GRADE LEVEL THAT THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO READ AT THEIR GRADE LEVEL ANYMORE, HEARING STORIES ABOUT A TEACHER IN A SCHOOL FOR GIFTED STUDENTS ACTUALLY AND A MAGNET SCHOOL IN NEW JERSEY.

SHE SAYS THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE USED TO ASK THEM TO TAKE 15 MINUTES TO READ A SHORT STORY.

NOW IT TAKES 40 MINUTES, MAYBE CLOSE TO A WHOLE PERIOD.

WE'RE HEARING THESE REPORTS FROM PEOPLE INSIDE THE BUILDING.

THESE ARE NOT INTEREST GROUPS THAT ARE TRYING TO ADVOCATE A POLITICAL AGENDA.

THESE ARE ACTUALLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRACTITIONERS WHO ARE RAISING THE ALARM AND SAYING SOMETHING'S WRONG HERE.

>> THE OTHER THING THAT YOU POINT OUT IN THE PIECE THAT I THINK TAKE LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE INTERESTED IN IS THAT THE STEEPEST ACADEMIC DECLINES ARE NOT HAPPENING IN TRADITIONALLY UNDERFUNDED OR WE'LL SAY CONSERVATIVE REGIONS THAT HAVE NOT TRADITIONALLY INVESTED IN EDUCATION EQUALLY, ESPECIALLY FOR GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED, RIGHT?

>> AND IT'S TRUE.

WE'RE TALKING REALLY ABOUT SOUTHERN STATES HERE.

MISSISSIPPI IS ONE.

LOUISIANA IS ANOTHER.

THESE ARE STATES THAT ARE NOT, TO PUT IT MILDLY, DO NOT HAVE A GOOD CIVIL RIGHTS RECORD, BUT THE NATIONAL ASSESSMENT SCORES SHOW TODAY AN ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED FOURTH GRADER IN MISSISSIPPI SCORES BETTER THAN AN ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED FOURTH GRADER IN MASSACHUSETTS OR NEW JERSEY, TRADITIONALLY HIGH PERFORMING STATES.

>> EXACTLY, PLACES THAT PUBLICLY PRIDE THEMSELVES IN VALUING EDUCATION, SPEND A LOT OF MONEY ON EDUCATION, AND HISTORICALLY, AT LEAST PUBLICLY, VALUE EQUITY.

YOU FOCUSED ON A PLACE THAT YOU KNOW WELL WHERE YOU LIVE, WHICH IS MONTCLAIR, NEW JERSEY, SPENDS A LITTLE MORE THAN $27,000 PER PUPIL PER YEAR, RIGHT?

ACHIEVEMENT HAS DROPPED BY A GRADE LEVEL IN READING AND BY HALF A GRADE IN MATH SINCE 2013.

WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THAT?

WAS THAT KIND OF THE LOGICAL EXTENSION OF HUH?

I WONDER WHAT'S HAPPENING IN MY OWN BACKYARD?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY INSPIRED ME TO DO IT IS THAT THERE WAS A --AS YOU ALLUDED TO A SECOND AGO, OUR DISTRICT SPENDS IN THE 95th PERCENTILE IN THE COUNTRY PER PUPIL ON EDUCATION AND YET WE HAVE NOT MADE MUCH, IF ANY, PROGRESS CLOSING THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP.

THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP IN OUR TOWN, WHICH IS ACTUALLY PRETTY RACIALLY DIVERSE, HAS GOTTEN WIDER SINCE THE PANDEMIC, ESPECIALLY IN MATH, AND MEANWHILE WE JUST FOUND OUT OVER THE SUMMER THAT WE HAVE A GIGANTIC BUDGET DEFICIT THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT.

SO, IN FACT, EVEN AS WE'RE NOT GETTING RESULTS, WE'VE ALSO BEEN SPENDING MUCH MORE MONEY THAN WE BUDGETED FOR EDUCATION AND CONSEQUENTLY, THE WHOLE COMMUNITY IS HAVING THIS VERY DIFFICULT CONVERSATION ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE GETTING THE RESULTS THAT WE'RE PAYING FOR FROM THE SYSTEM AND WHETHER WE'VE ALLOWED THE SYSTEM TO ATROPHY AND WHETHER WE'VE PERHAPS PRIORITIZED THINGS IN OUR SPENDING THAT DON'T NECESSARILY GO TOWARDS LEARNING AND GO TOWARDS CLOSING ACHIEVEMENT GAPS AND GO TOWARDS PREPARING STUDENTS TO REALLY THRIVE IN COLLEGE AND IN THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

>> YOU QUOTE A SUPERINTENDENT WHO SAYS, "OUR BUDGET REFLECTS OUR PRIORITIES.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF OUR PRIORITY TEACHING AND LEARNING HAS HONESTLY BEEN."

SO WHAT HAS THE MONEY BEEN GOING TO?

>> DISTRICTS ARE SPENDING MORE MONEY ON ANCILLARY THINGS THAT THEY DIDN'T IN YEARS PAST THAN THEY EVER HAVE BEFORE.

IF YOU TALK WITH TEACHERS, THEY'LL OFTEN TELL YOU THAT THE SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS THEMSELVES ARE BEING ASKED TO DO MORE THAN THEY HAVE EVER DONE BEFORE.

THERE'S AN ARTICLE JUST OUT IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT HOW CLASSIFICATIONS FOR SPECIAL EDUCATION AND ANXIETY DIAGNOSES AND DEPRESSION DIAGNOSES HAVE REALLY JUST GONE THROUGH THE ROOF IN A LOT OF SCHOOLS.

SO THAT MEANS SCHOOLS ARE HIRING COUNSELORS.

THAT MEANS THAT A LOT MORE KIDS HAVE IEPs IN OTHER FORMS OF SPECIAL EDUCATION CLASSIFICATIONS WHICH MEAN HAVING TO HIRE MORE TEACHERS, MORE PERSONNEL TO ADDRESS THOSE DEFICITS.

AGAIN, IT'S NOT A MONOCAUSAL SITUATION, BUT IT ALL STARTS TO ADD UP.

WHAT YOU END UP GETTING IS A SITUATION IN WHICH WE HAVE EVER INFLATING COSTS FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION AND CRUCIALLY I THINK IMPORTANT TO NOTE UNDER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR CHRIS LAST DECADE THE STATE ALSO PUT IN A CAP ON HOW MUCH MUNICIPALITIES CAN RAISE THEIR PROPERTY TAXES WHICH FINANCE SCHOOLS OF 2%.

SO YOU CAN DO THE MATH.

INFLATION IS GOING UP FASTER THAN 2% IN EVERYTHING, BUSES, PERSONNEL, EVERY ASPECT OF EDUCATION, AND THE SCHOOL DISTRICTS AT LEAST HERE IN NEW JERSEY --AND THIS IS NOT UNCOMMON THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY --HAVE A HARD CAP OF HOW MUCH THEY CAN RAISE MONEY AND IT MEANS THEY END UP HAVING TO ALWAYS BE DOING MORE WITH LESS.

>> BUT HOW DOES THIS EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT SOME OF THESE SOUTHERN STATES THAT TRADITIONALLY HAVE NOT INVESTED AS HEAVILY IN PUBLIC EDUCATION, THEIR KIDS SEEM TO BE DOING BETTER?

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE DIFFERENT THEORIES.

ONE HAS TO DO WITH CURRICULUM AND CONTINUING TEACHING OF PHONICS AND SO ON.

OTHERS HAVE TO DO WITH TEACHER TRAINING, BUT A REALLY BIG ONE THAT I ADDRESS AT LENGTH IN THE STORY IS THIS IDEA THAT THE MORE CONSERVATIVE STATES NEVER REALLY BACKED AWAY FROM A SYSTEM OF WHAT WAS CALLED ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SCHOOLS, LARGELY BASED ON TEST SCORES, ALTHOUGH NOT EXCLUSIVELY BASED ON TEST SCORES.

THERE'S A LONG PERIOD OF TIME WHEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ALIKE HAD A SENSE THAT THEY WOULD CREATE --SET HIGH STANDARDS FOR SCHOOLS AND HOLD THEM TO THOSE HIGH STANDARDS, REWARDING THEM WHEN THEY MET THEM OR EXCEEDED THEM AND THERE WERE INCENTIVES AND DISINCENTIVES THAT WERE SET UP AROUND THESE ACCOUNTABILITY BENCHMARKS.

AND SO THE SOUTHERN STATES, BY AND LARGE, HAVE KIND OF STUCK WITH THAT.

A LOT OF THE LIBERAL NORTHEASTERN STATES, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE PANDEMIC, HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM USING TEST SCORES IN THAT WAY.

LOTS OF COMPLICATED REASONS FOR THAT, BUT A BIG ONE IS A FEDERAL LAW SIGNED BY BARACK OBAMA IN 2015 THAT REALLY DELEGATED A LOT OF AUTHORITY TO THE STATES.

2015, IF YOU REMEMBER FROM WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, WE TALK ABOUT THE MYSTERY OF THIS INFLECTION POINT WHERE THINGS STARTED TO GO DOWN.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN WHAT I CALL THE DECLINING STANDARDS HYPOTHESIS POINT TO THE SIGNING OF THIS LAW IN 2015 AS THE KIND OF TURNING POINT IN WHICH EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT STARTED TO GO IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

SO IF YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE GOING WRONG OR WHAT WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO FIX, THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD PLACE TO START.

I THINK A LOT OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS EDUCATIONAL FORUM MOVEMENT WOULD SAY.

>> HOW HEATED THESE ARGUMENTS WERE OVER IN GEORGE W. BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION, HIS KIND OF NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND INITIATIVE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE KIND OF IN THE EDUCATIONAL POLICY WORLD, TEACHERS UNIONS WERE SORT OF FURIOUS ABOUT IT.

THEY THOUGHT THIS IS TEACHING TO THE TEST.

YOU'RE GOING TO DRIVE ALL THE JOY IS AND PASSION OUT OF TEACHING AND THE CREATIVITY.

IT'S GOING TO BE ALL ABOUT THE TEST, ALL ABOUT THE TEST, BUT SO NOW LOOKING AT IT, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S BEEN ANY KIND OF A CHANGE OF HEART?

>> I THINK EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAID ABOUT SUCKING JOY OUT OF THE CLASSROOM AND TEACHING TO THE TEST AND INCENTIVIZING CHEATING AND SO ON, THESE ARE ALL REAL THINGS AND REAL DOWNSIDES TO THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND REGIMEN.

SO I'M NOT IN ANY WAY SORT OF ROMANTICIZING WHAT THERE WAS BEFORE, BUT AS ALWAYS WITH ANY KIND OF POLICY CHANGE, THERE ARE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

WHAT ONE EDUCATIONAL POLICY SPECIALIST TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, IN THE COURSE OF DOING THIS THAT IN 2015 WHEN OBAMA SIGNED THE LAW REFORMING NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, HE SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE IS WIDESPREAD ANTICIPATION THAT WE'RE MOVING TO SOMETHING BETTER AND IT TURNED OUT WE'RE MOVING TO SOMETHING MUCH WORSE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY IN YOUR PIECE, WHICH IS ALSO SURPRISING TO ME, IS YOU REFERENCE WORK BY AN OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR VLADIMIR KOGAN SHOWING THAT SCHOOL BOARDS ARE OFTEN ELECTED BY "MOSTLY CHILDLESS OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE UPPER INCOME VOTERS," CREATING WHAT HE CALLS A DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT.

SO HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE VOTE FOR SCHOOL BOARDS BASED ON THEIR TAXES, BASED ON --IN ANY COMMUNITY I THINK THE NUMBER OF PARENTS IN ANY GIVEN COMMUNITY IS NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE A MAJORITY JUST BY THE NATURE OF DEMOGRAPHICS.

YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHOSE CHILDREN HAVE NOT ENTERED THE SYSTEM YET.

YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE CHILDREN.

SO THE ELECTORATES ARE NOT MADE UP PRIMARILY OR EXCLUSIVELY OF PARENTS.

I ALSO THINK, TO BE CANDID ABOUT IT, I THINK IN A LOT OF PLACES EVEN PARENTS WHO SHOULD BE THE MOST INVESTED IN THE SYSTEM, THERE'S A SENSE OF DISCONNECTION.

OFTENTIMES THESE ARE VERY LOW TURNOUT ELECTIONS AND OFTENTIMES PARENTS HAVE NO IDEA THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG.

SO NOW, FOR INSTANCE, IN MY COMMUNITY IN MONTCLAIR THERE ARE PEOPLE STARTING PUBLIC ADVOCACY GROUPS.

THERE ARE WHATSAPP GROUPS THAT ARE GETTING TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT ALL THESE ISSUES, PRINT UP YARD SIGNS, TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO THE POLLS FOR THIS REFERENDUM WHERE WE'RE VOTING ON POTENTIAL TAX INCREASE IN WEEK FROM NOW, BUT I WOULD SAY JUST CANDIDLY, I THINK THE PERCENTAGE OF THOSE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE PAYING ATTENTION SIX MONTHS AGO, NINE MONTHS AGO, A YEAR AGO TO WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE SCHOOLS WAS QUITE SMALL.

AND SO I THINK THAT THESE ARE THINGS YOU HAVE TO SPEND -- MAKE A LOT OF EFFORT TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

I KNOW FROM HAVING TRIED TO MAKE SOME EFFORT TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEM THAT THE SYSTEMS ARE NOT EASY, YOU KNOW.

IT'S NOT EASY TO GO TO A FOUR- HOUR SCHOOL BOARD MEETING ON A WEEKNIGHT IF YOU'RE A WORKING PARENT.

ANYWAY, THE POINT IS THAT WE GET THE SYSTEM THAT WE GET IN PART BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS SET UP TO MAKE US DISINVESTED IN IT.

>> ANDREW RICE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS A LOT.

>>> FINALLY, REMEMBERING ONE OF BRITAIN'S GREATEST PLAYWRIGHTS, TOM STAUFFERT WHO DIED PEACEFULLY OVER THE WEEKEND AT AGE 88.

ARCADIA AND LEOPOLD, HE EARNED ENDLESS ACCOLADES.

BORN IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA IN 1937, HIS FAMILY FLED THE NAZIS, BUT ONLY LATER IN LIFE DID HE DISCOVER BOTH HIS PARENTS WERE JEWISH AND MANY OF HIS FAMILY MEMBERS HAD BEEN KILLED IN THE HOLOCAUST.

IN 2021 CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO TOM AND ASKED HIM TO REFLECT ON HIS EXTRAORDINARY LIFE.

>> YOU HAVE SAID FOR MANY OF THE REASONS YOU LISTED, YOUR MOTHER MADE SURE THAT YOU SAID SHE SAVED YOU.

SHE SAVED YOUR LIVES AND THAT YOU ALWAYS BELIEVED YOU HAD A CHARMED LIFE.

AFTER ALL OF THIS, DO YOU STILL BELIEVE YOU HAVE A CHARMED LIFE?

>> I'M AFRAID I DO.

I MEAN I KNOW BAD THINGS HAPPEN AS TO EVERYBODY.

I LOST MY FATHER WHEN I WAS 4 YEARS OLD, BUT MANY HAD GREATER LOSSES TO BEAR.

WHEN I WAS WRITE, A LONDON SEASON WOULD HAVE PERHAPS 24 STRAIGHT PLAYS AND THREE OR FOUR MUSICALS AND PROGRESSIVELY THAT'S TURNED INTO 24 MUSICALS AND THREE OR FOUR STRAIGHT PLAYS.

SO IT'S KIND OF A RARE BEAST, A STRAIGHT PLAY, IN A WAY, BUT EVERY TIME A NEW ONE SHOWS UP, YOU KNOW, I KIND OF -- MY EYES BRIGHTEN.

MY FUR STARTS GLISTENING.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

>>